[esbwhat]

There is a middle ground to this. Always praise effort, never skill. They did studies on this, if you praise children for their talent, they will do worse than if you praise them for their effort. Effort is in their control, talent is not. This doesn't mean you need your children to hate you/be super strict.

[neovive]

This article from HBR [November 2011] really highlights this issue http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2011/11/the_trouble_with_bright_kids.... Here is the ensuing HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284169.

[davidp]

If you said "results" instead of "effort" it would ring even more true. In the real world effort doesn't matter as much as results. "Trying your best" is just a means to the end of getting maximum results, and doesn't in itself earn much reward.

If someone tries their best but still raises a rotten child because they're just not good at parenting, do they deserve as much praise as someone who raised the same child to be a great man or woman?

[nostrademons]

You don't want to praise for results because results are often out of your control. If you grow up thinking that results are all that matter and then your first startup fails because market conditions change, what does that tell you? That it was all worthless? You end up becoming incapable of dealing with randomness, and hence shy away from situations where the results may not be entirely under your control.

Results should be looked at as a feedback mechanism to give you a reality check on your effort. If you gave it your all and still failed - what could you have done differently? Were you directing your effort at the things that are most important? Was it a goal worth doing in the first place? Could you have adjusted your actions to get a bigger payoff for your effort?

(And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.)

[briguy]

I agree with these things in general and being a father, I try to keep up on these "outlier" type conversations on parenting. However, being a father of two young children I am also starting to realize that people are programmed a certain way at birth. Some are naturally ambitious, some are cunning, some are observant, some are curious, some are naive, others sensitive, others tough, etc. You can see it very early on. There is no set rule or path to "Success". Not everyone is going to achieve "Success" no matter what you do as a parent. I grew up with three siblings all with the same parents in the same home...three different outcomes. I think that those who read these books (including myself) are part of the group of people who question if they fully optimized their potential and perhaps want to see if they can help their kids along in a different way. There are some kids that don't need an ounce of motivation and others that need to be nurtured at every step. You have to look at each individual differently and adapt to them and their needs. Bottom Line....to paraphrase from Barbara Corcoran's business book... I am trying to help my children "use what they've got"

[philh]

> (And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.)

That's not the question he asked. You're comparing parents who face different challenges. The question was about parents who face the same challenges, and both sets of parents put a lot of effort in, but one set is good at parenting and the other set is bad at parenting.

[nostrademons]

Like perhaps one set of parents consist of an orphan and someone who grew up in a household with mentally-ill parents, while the other set come from comfortable intact middle-class nuclear families? And the first set just don't know how to parent because they had shitty or no role-models growing up?

I would still respect the first set of parents. They did the best they could with what they had to work with. It's a sad situation though...in a perfect world effort would equal results, but the world ain't perfect.

[doktrin]

The parent is referring to a well documented phenomenon in which effort (and feedback loops which encourage effort over talent) is tightly correlated with success.

I believe you are incorrect in jumping to the conclusion that encouraging "results" would be superior to encouraging grit, effort and work. For one, the research is absent, and for another it makes the "how" incidental - whereas it is not.

My degree, for instance, is in part only as meaningful as the work I put into it. Lying, cheating and stealing my way towards it would not serve me in the long run.

[philh]

Note, there's a distinction between "praising someone for their effort" (where you say something is good because they worked hard at it) and "praising their effort" (where you literally praise the effort they put into something).

[dhimes]

This is an important distinction. The studies say that, in general, you want to say to a child, "great job for being a hard worker" rather than "wow, you are so smart."

It turns out that if the kid associates his/her self-image with being smart, they tend to avoid hard stuff later that they may not look so smart it. If you praise effort, their more likely to work hard a hard problems.

[briguy]

My personal take on this is that it helps to show/teach kids what the expected results are and then praise them for their hard work in trying to reach that goal. For instance, I think it is healthy to go outside and play basketball and say "The goal is to get the ball in the basket". If you miss the basket, try to figure out why you missed and adjust. I think that if your kid gets progressively closer to the hoop and they are trying different things to adjust, that they should be praised for their hard work/effort (even if then do not get any baskets). The kids will focus on both the goal and the process of trying to adjust to achieve that goal, both of those having rewarding outcomes. However if you only focus on the Result, certain kids that are not analytical or highly gifted athletically, could get discouraged when they are not attaining those results as quickly as others. Better results are attainable for others, however they need more nurturing and more practice. On the other hand, to go out and show a child exactly how to shoot the ball in great detail, does not allow the child the room for experimentation to learn how to adapt. It is important to realize that there are some very successful guys in the NBA that can't really shoot that well (they can sure dunk or pass)....and some team owners that can not shoot at all. Each kid will be different. Find out what your kid is good at and help then along with that.

[dhimes]

This makes good sense. As I recall, the new results focused on what you said after a successful result. Praising the kid for being smart tended to make them shy away from intellectual challenge, because they didn't want to be seen as not smart enough. Praising them for working hard for their result, on the other hand, resulted in kids not afraid to try hard things.