[dkarl]

It isn't formatted as a quote. It may be Noble's idea, but it's Chomsky saying it, in his own voice, so at the very least he agrees with it.

When you say a solution to the problem I raise, what do you mean? I don't regard it as a problem if the idea of overthrowing management only makes sense in some contexts and not in others.

[lyudmil]

Regarding your first point, Chomsky does agree with it, but you said "his analysis." I was pointing out that it isn't his analysis and also wanted to stress that he's referring to a much larger volume of work (a book), rather than making an off-the-cuff remark, so there would be a lot of material for you to study if you wanted to critique the analysis. It's usually unwise to do so only having read a summary.

With regard to your second point, you merely asserted that the plausibility of worker self-management is influenced by cultural variables. Here again I was implying that you ought to refrain from speculation before having studied the matter thoroughly, as I know there are a lot of other factors to consider. It is possible that your intuition is correct, but very unlikely unless it's informed by all the prior work on the subject.

Basically, on both counts I'm advocating humility and avoidance of speculation, which are principles that apply to almost all statements by everybody. I'm not interested in arguing for or against your points because I don't have the knowledge to do so in a reasonable way. My problem is that in your comment you betrayed evidence that neither do you, so I wanted to put a word of caution in there.

[cardiffspaceman]

Speculation is the order of the day here. Maybe you're the one who knows the most on this subject amongst all the folks on Hacker News, and you should just go for it. No one's going to pull Noam Chomsky from the bushes.

[TeMPOraL]

> No one's going to pull Noam Chomsky from the bushes.

Not that this doesn't sometimes happen with famous people, whether over here or over Reddit. The Internet is a small place :).

[dkarl]

Regarding your first point, Chomsky does agree with it, but you said "his analysis."

And you said he was "quoting David Noble." Let's call it a draw and try to stick to more interesting questions.

you merely asserted that the plausibility of worker self-management is influenced by cultural variables

I didn't mean to address the plausibility of self-management so much as the desirability of it. I didn't say it directly, but what I was questioning was the imperative to "get rid of the bosses," which seems to rest on the notion that management, as a class above and condescending to the workers, enjoys an undeserved superior status. Chomsky says they "don't do anything but get in the way," but of course that is rarely the case, which is why we talk about "worker self-management" instead of "workers and no management." If I see management as necessary work, if I do not feel demeaned relative to managers by my status as a non-manager, if I see management simply as a job that I find less attractive than my own, and if I want to exercise power over a very slim subset of management concerns (pay, working conditions, benefits) then where does my motivation to take over management responsibilities come from?

I think there's a very strong motive present in some cultures much more than in others, which is related to giving and receiving orders. For some people, giving and receiving orders means that the person giving orders is higher and better than the person receiving them. For others, giving and receiving orders simply means that the person giving the orders is exercising a certain limited authority inherent in his or her job responsibilities, and neither party is demeaned or elevated by the exchange. If management authority implies superior moral worth, and we deny that one person can be worth more than another, then management hierarchies are immoral and must be abolished. If giving and receiving orders is just a matter of people playing roles that help the business function efficiently, then two people can be utterly equal even though one has the authority to give certain orders to the other, and a hierarchical business structure does not shame or elevate anyone. It is merely effective or ineffective at serving the needs of the people who serve it, so a deep, shallow, or democratic management structure can be chosen according to which one allows the business to run most effectively.

I'm taking it for granted, by the way, that if non-management workers have the power to completely overthrow management, then they also have the power to force management to treat them fairly, and they choose between the two alternatives. If they somehow had the power to do the former but not the latter, then I suppose they would exercise the power they had.

Basically, on both counts I'm advocating humility and avoidance of speculation, which are principles that apply to almost all statements by everybody.

You're right; I know virtually nothing about this, and I am always happy to see someone more knowledgeable than me share what they know. However, if your contribution to the discussion is to point out my ignorance without attempting to remedy it, cite the existence of learned arguments that you don't care to share, and advocate deferring the point to authority instead of discussing it, then I don't think you're in a position to pass judgment on my contribution.

[lyudmil]

There's obviously little point in continuing this further. I originally wanted to point out that you were making some bold assertions. I also admitted ignorance, but I pointed you to Michael Albert's work, who both theorizes about and follows experiments in self-managing workplaces, where you'll be able to read that what you've pointed out is a valid concern and how they propose you get around it. Also, if you read it carefully, you'll also see some other small inaccuracies in your summary of Nobel's argument.

I didn't think I was being flippant or rude and I'm sorry that I've come across that way. If I did have knowledge or an informed opinion about this, I would've shared it. If I could've stated my opinion better, I would've. I shared what I knew. However, you also have a certain responsibility, if you want to be taken seriously, to study at least partially the material you criticize.