[chimeracoder]

I like that distinction, but to be clear, the distinction isn't strictly an "either-or". It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms.

In other words, if you subscribe to the four tenets of software freedom as they pertain to users, "free software" also provides as much freedom to the developers as is possible without compromising on the users' freedoms.

[tytso]

Well, the Linux Kernel's position is that we want the contributions from companies like Tivo, because even though a particular device might be locked down. Contributions from companies like Tivo, and Sony, and Samsung, which may have some of their products with locked down devices, are nevertheless valid contributions which will help make the Linux kernel better --- and those contributions can also be used in completely free systems.

So it's basically a "stone soup" model, as it applies to developers. If you use my source code, you can use it for whatever you want, so long as my freedoms to get back your changes (which then I can use in whatever way I want, including in locked down devices) can go into the project.

As far as I am concerned, a locked-down device is a business model choice. It allows hardware to be sold for much less money, because it allows for alternate monetization strategies (i.e., the Tivo subscription services, video rentals, etc.) People who want to buy general purpose computers can always install the Open Source software on a machine of their choosing, and that's also fine. Whether you want to pay $199 or $699 and perhaps give up some freedoms as far as that particular device is concerned is also a choice which each user should be allowed to make on their own. After all, the freedom to choose is also a freedom.

Now, there are two counter-arguments to this perspective. Once is in a device with a mixed set of proprietary and free/open source software, it may not be possible to use the proprietary software on a general purpose computer. There the question is whether free software should be used as a bludgeon to force vendors of products which also use some proprietary code to give more freedoms to users (which may undermine certain business models as described above).

The second pontential argument is "what if there are no more general purpose computers". And there this is where the UEFI secure boot discussions become especially interesting. However, so long as it's possible to disable secure boot, or the hardware allows users to install signing keys of their own choosing, the threat of not being able to purchase general purpose computers where you can install software of your choice is not credible at least in the near term, and so long as we work hard to make sure it doesn't appear, I don't think will be a huge threat in the long term. You may not be able to get a general purpose computer with a quad-core CPU, 16 gigs of memory, etc., for $29.95 plus a two year subscription, but if you are willing to pay the full fair price, I'm fairly confident the threat of not being able to buy a general purpose computer is not a high probability outcome.

So the bottom line is we want developers to be able to be free to pursue business models that in turn allow users to be able to purchase devices that may not offer them the full set of freedomes --- but it's the user's choice that they get those locked-down devices. The FSF position is that they don't want their source code to ever be used in devices that might not allow users the full range of freedoms, even if it hurts the software project by turning away developers who have these business models that they disagree with.

[chimeracoder]

> I'm fairly confident the threat of not being able to buy a general purpose computer is not a high probability outcome.

I already have to go very far out of my way and pay a huge premium for getting an unlocked Android phone. As phones/tables supplant many "general-purpose" computer use cases, this threat is only increasing, if current trends continue.

[tytso]

As eropple has already pointed out, the Nexus 4 is quite reasonably priced. More importantly, it's not that you're paying a premium, it's that you're paying the true cost. Most of the locked phones are locked because they are enforcing the fact that you are paying an extra $10 to $20 a month to defray the cost of the phone. If you don't replace your phone after two years, you'll end up paying an extra $120 to $240 extra for your phone. And if you do get a new subsidized phone, you'll be locked in for another two years.

[chimeracoder]

You're confusing having a carrier-unlocked phone with having a phone that has an unlocked bootloader. The two are completely orthogonal concepts; you can unlock the bootloader of a phone that you received with a subsidy by signing 2-year contract with a carrier.

The point is that, once I've bought the hardware, nobody should be able to tell me my that I can't flash my own custom ROM on the phone.

[tytso]

So don't buy locked down devices. There are unlocked device for sale, and the Nexus devices are at least price competitive, if not downright cheaper in the case of the Nexus 4 and Nexus 7. (Yeah, there are some availability issues, but I bet after Christmas things will get better on that front.)

[chimeracoder]

> (Yeah, there are some availability issues, but I bet after Christmas things will get better on that front.)

The availability issues for the Nexus 4 have absolutely nothing to do with the Christmas rush.

> So don't buy locked down devices. There are unlocked device for sale,

You're missing the two points, which are:

1. Unlocking the device should be an option for all phones - it's a basic right of ownership.

2. It's getting harder and harder to find truly open devices (the Galaxy Nexus had issues on this front). If things keep heading in this direction, soon there won't be any unlocked devices for sale.

[eropple]

I already have to go very far out of my way and pay a huge premium for getting an unlocked Android phone.

How is that the case? I pay less for my Nexus devices than I'd pay for any locked-down phone (either up-front or given the increased cost of a subsidized-phone plan).

[yxhuvud]

Sorry but you cannot have both the cake and eat it. You either have to compromise on users or on developers. GPL license writers choose not to compromise on users by enforcing that modifications are contributed back. BSD license writers choose not to compromise on developers by allowing developers to use the code as they see fit, no strings attached.

These are not compatible. There are either strings attached as in GPL or there are not, as in BSD.

[chimeracoder]

> You either have to compromise on users or on developers.

Developers are users.

> There are either strings attached as in GPL or there are not, as in BSD.

From the way you're phrasing this, it's clear you miss the free software paradigm altogether. There are no strings attached. The ability for some users to limit other users' freedoms isn't one of the four freedoms.

[rimantas]

Well, you not counting something I want to do with code as freedom does not make it less of a freedom. That, and also, that by limiting my ability to limit other users' freedom you are in fact limiting my own freedom: I may not use your code licensed that way. That's way I go with MIT, BSD, whatever, and leave GPL folks to play their hypocritical games with semantics, definitions and freedoms.

[chimeracoder]

> That, and also, that by limiting my ability to limit other users' freedom you are in fact limiting my own freedom

Nobody ever said that you had a right to infringe upon others' rights.

> leave GPL folks to play their hypocritical games with semantics, definitions and freedoms.

There's not one ounce of hypocrisy anywhere here. You may not like it, but to call "GPL folks" hypocritical is absolutely ridiculous.

Finally, it's remarkable that you managed to take a comment my comment, which was originally highlighting the similarities between the two schools of thought, and turning it into a jumping-off point for how one is clearly better than the other. Well-done!

[yxhuvud]

Sigh.

As a developer I have a problem to solve. GPL code comes with strings attach that LIMIT my ability to use it since the code I am writing does not have GPL compatible licensing. Thus it limits me as a developer.

I don't miss the free software ideology - I just don't care about it. I care about the software I write and of what the users want, nothing more and nothing less.

[chimeracoder]

> the code I am writing does not have GPL compatible licensing. Thus it limits me as a developer.

So, you're saying that you want to choose a license for your code that infringes upon its users freedoms. That's not a problem with the GPL.

> I care about the software I write and of what the users want

Free software isn't about what users want. It's about what they deserve.

Rights are inalienable, so regardless of what users say or how they act, the rights are theirs, and neither you nor anybody else can infringe upon users' freedoms.

[icebraining]

enforcing that modifications are contributed back

Forward, not back. Sorry, but I think this is an important yet often missed distinction.

[dalke]

Developers are a proper subset of users. There's no either-or here.

[chimeracoder]

Well, that's my point. "Open source" protects only the freedoms that relate to a portion of users (developers), whereas "free software" protects the freedoms that relate to all users.

[dalke]

I think we are, as the saying goes, in violent agreement.

I don't understand where the either-or comes in.

[bonzini]

Choosing a subset of users to satisfy will not protect the freedom of users as a whole.

Choosing to protect the freedom of users as a whole will dissatisfy developers who would like to have a different set of freedoms.

[dalke]

Ahh, right. Like "equality before the law" is great for everyone, but for people with lots of money it might be a bit annoying.

[rbanffy]

> It's pretty clear that "open source" is motivated by developer freedoms, but the fact that "free software" is motivated by user freedoms doesn't make it less about developer freedoms

I'm always surprised by the number of developers who enjoy the freedoms they are granted without thinking twice about taking the same freedoms away from their users.