[vlovich123]

> They’ve never interfered in my politics or started any wars

But they have. I dont know what specific country you are referring to but China has interfered with US elections as well as Canada, Taiwan, and Australia in addition to many many others.

They’ve annexed Tibet (1950), fought India (1962) and Vietnam (1979) among others and more recently in 2020 a deadly skirmish with India. They’ve generally shifted their focus to cyber military actions but you’d have to be pretty naive they won’t start to exercise military control over Taiwan when/if they get a chance.

[don_esteban]

Now compare that to what the USA did in the same time frame. Pay special attention to people killed (either directly, or indirectly) outside of their own borders. Who should you be worried about?

[minraws]

Two evils just means there are two evils. We don't have to value one more than the other.

Wrongs don't negate each other.

[wongarsu]

If you have the choice between AI models created by one evil or the other, it does feel relevant which you consider to be the lesser evil

[repler]

That’s a pathetic moral band-aid.

All technology can be used for good or used for evil depending on who is using it and how. From fire to internal combustion engines to nuclear energy.

[bambax]

> We don't have to value one more than the other.

Yes we do. We should evaluate threats and choose our allies carefully.

[guax]

Correct, but people are not wrong in being more concerned about the evil biting than the one keeping it chill.

[rob74]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. As the saying goes: "better the devil you know". China can at least so far be relied upon to not shoot itself in the foot (and take the whole word with it). The same cannot be said of other great powers like the US (under Trump, for more reasons than I'm willing to list here) and Russia (with Putin's completely harebrained invasion of Ukraine). China can prove me wrong any time by invading Taiwan, but I still hope they don't. Of course, if we try to keep them away from advanced chip technology, that would be further motivation to invade (although TSMC is unlikely to survive an invasion - even if it did survive the actual conflict, it would probably be destroyed or evacuated to avoid it falling into Chinese hands? But I don't want to see the hardware prices after such an event).

[ethbr1]

> China can at least so far be relied upon to not shoot itself in the foot (and take the whole word with it)

Here's the dangerous thing about that: modern CCP China is a newly ascendant world power.

Say what you want about the US today, but when was it at isn't interventionist worst historically-speaking?

Countries don't go to war because their leaders take them to war: they go to war because a sufficient chunk of internal interests support war.

And China has a rather politically-powerful military. Although Xi's recent housecleaning substantially weakened that power.

If China goes to war, it's probably going to be because their economy is in tatters.

[rob74]

> If China goes to war, it's probably going to be because their economy is in tatters.

Well, they probably also have to factor in whether invading Taiwan is likely to improve that situation, and I would argue that it's not - China is currently exporting stuff all over the world, so economic sanctions would be very painful for them. And there are lots of countries who would like to have a slice of the manufacturing that China is currently hogging...

[RobotToaster]

Great powers go to war due to Thucydides Trap. When a hegemon feels their position is threatened by the success of a rising power, they usually try to crush it. https://www.belfercenter.org/programs/thucydidess-trap/thucy...

[monooso]

There is considerable evidence to suggest that the current US President goes to war if it will make him a quick buck.

[scottyah]

China has planned out the invasion/reclamation of Taiwan in 2027. They held true to their Hong Kong timeline, not sure why this would be any different.

[Foobar8568]

And let's not forget the kidnapping of a foreign president, and nothing happened.

[roysting]

Don’t let the manipulative narcissists lead you into the trap of false equivalence

[p2detar]

> China can at least so far be relied upon to not shoot itself in the foot

We still don't know where and how Covid came to be, so no - hard disagree.

[jeltz]

We do well enough. It either happened naturally, or less likely due to a lab accident. If there is a cover up it is to hide incompetence.

[rob74]

Yes we do. We also (despite theories stating the contrary) know that the current climate change is caused by us burning too many fossil fuels, that the utility of vaccines preventing deadly diseases outweighs any rare side effects, that airlines are not involved in a secret conspiracy of releasing chemicals (all airlines at the same time and only in certain meteorological conditions), and that the earth is roughly spherical.

[roysting]

You should avoid agreeing with the narcissists that always use false equivalence, whataboutism, and goal post shifting the second you call them out.

You are allowing them to define a ridiculous standard by agreeing with them that not only is it in fact “two evils” but what qualifies as evil. They’ll tell you…always only when called out, mind you…all and any meddling (also something they will then define with the same kind of falls equivalence loop) is evils, when that is simply not true, not is any kind of effort to influence the same thing as actual meddling, not us it always evil.

I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point, the narcissistic personality or their little zombies in most cases will constantly shift and change things all to avoid you from being able to get a clear focus on the truth, something their explosively allergic to.

As an American child of the Empire with global perspective and very high access perspective, there is no other entity besides the cabal that controls the USA and acts flying its banner; that is more deadly, more meddling, more conniving, more evil, more supremacist, and more vile.

[minraws]

Given it's an internet forum, and people here can be anyone around the world, I understand your intent but people over index on the threat that ofc feels closer, rather than the threat that's significantly farther away.

But in general if you ask folks in south east Asia you will find they are likely to be more concerned with China than US except this maddening Oil Crisis.

Although I think people now are very afraid/wary of both evils.

The US govt should think why people in all parts of the world including US itself feel just if not more threatened by them, than China and other evils we have floating around.

I would like to hope my American friends didn't vote for this madness or maybe they did I have read DHH's tweets.

[khriss]

Sadly, we live in a decidedly imperfect world. I don't think there is a single completely good person on the planet, let alone a country.

[tempfile]

Nobody said they negate each other. The comment being discussed is fearmongering about China and is very relaxed about the USA. All we're saying is you should be either afraid of both or relaxed about both. China is not worse than the US.

[LtWorf]

It is perfectly fine to say that a person who killed one person is bad but not as bad as the one who killed thousands.

I eagerly await for the USA citizens to downvote this in about 5 hours.

[teiferer]

> Who should you be worried about?

For Americans the answer is obvious since they are biased in this.

For everybody else, your question is valid.

[saidnooneever]

Dont pretend americans dont need to be afraid of american government. look at the state of the place. A lot of them arent exactly thrilled with their current environment, job market, education, prisonsystem, gun laws, food industry, healthcare etc. etc.

the question is valid for anyone who cares for more than their own ass

[panicinducer]

I'm an American, but I do not think the American government being strong helps me or my fellow Americans. The less America can project its cultural and military power on the rest of the world, the better.

[fragmede]

There are different kinds of strengths. There was a past American government that was strong enough to stamp out inequality and fight for civil rights. To overturn oppression and give everyone an equal opportunity to succeed. That's a strong American government I could get behind.

[nylonstrung]

Economic inequality is higher than it's ever been in the US. The reforms you're talking about largely happened in the single term of LBJ, I don't think it can be extrapolated to the "US government"

[dudefeliciano]

> There was a past American government that was strong enough to stamp out inequality and fight for civil rights.

this is a hilariously naive rewriting of history, the government was very reluctant to make those changes. It's thanks to popular movements that those changes were made.

[fragmede]

I'm thinking specifically of the Little Rock Nine in 1957 where President Eisenhower took charge of the national guard so that nine Black students could attend high school. The government isn't one monolithic entity. It's a bunch of people doing different stuff, and some of them suck, and some of them are awesome.

[panicinducer]

That is quite a take, but I guess it's the perspective that the American education system indoctrinates.

[Gud]

The American government has caused the death of a lot more Americans than China has.

[clarionbell]

Cultural revolution?

[Gud]

How many Americans were killed during the Cultural revolution?

[Foobar8568]

Considering who has been their president for 2 terms, and most likely a third one, I really wonder.

All my life I heard American boasting their constitutions but now it's as worthy of my toilet papers.

[neal_jones]

Turns out the whole system is quite fragile when faced with people who have no interest in anyone besides themselves

[neuroticnews25]

I see this narration repeated here, but to me it seems Americans are actually one of the most self-cynical nations. Here in Poland we still actually believe in the superiority of the western values of freedom, democracy and individualism. "People roughly like us" vs "insect hivemind" is the simplest choice ever.

[nlehuen]

Please reconsider this comment. Calling one side superior and the other side insects really doesn't help with the discussion, and dehumanizing a whole swath of people really has dark consequences.

[neuroticnews25]

Yeah, sorry for being edgy. But remember the understanding of universal human dignity your comment is stemming from is not shared globally.

[mldqj]

At least not shared by you, apparently.

[Doch88]

Speak for yourself, in Italy we are also closer to US "culture", but I do see the US as a bigger threat than China, simply because it's closer and it directly affects our politics.

[nswango]

This sounds like you are urging people not to disregard racism when comparing superpower regimes.

[vector_spaces]

For a concrete example, consider e.g. Operation Condor which displaced my own family

> Operation Condor (Spanish: Operación Cóndor; Portuguese: Operação Condor) was a campaign of political repression by the right-wing dictatorships of the Southern Cone of South America, involving intelligence operations, coups, and assassinations of left-wing sympathizers in South America. Operation Condor formally existed from 1975 to 1983. Condor was formally created in November 1975, when Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet's spy chief, Manuel Contreras, invited 50 intelligence officers from Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay to the Army War Academy in Santiago, Chile. The operation was backed by the United States, which financed the covert operations. France is alleged to have collaborated but has denied involvement. The operation ended with the fall of the Argentine junta in 1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

[isoprophlex]

Both of them.

[vlovich123]

Whataboutism isn’t a useful game. The claim was that they don’t interfere with politics of external countries. They do.

The claim is they don’t engage in warfare when they do, just exclusively in the digital domain for now. Believing it’ll stay there is naive.

Playing the moral superiority game is uninteresting in either direction. Games of power inherently are devoid of morality.

[darkwater]

Ok, let's follow your rules then. If we remove morality, we are left with what? Pure numbers? If you want to be technically correct China foreign interventions are > 0, indeed. But the scale of US actions is, I would dare to say, at least one magnitude bigger. An empire should be judged for how they treat their own citizens, their allies and their enemies. And if we do that, maybe China and the US are not so different.

[vlovich123]

I’m confused. You start off like you’re going to disagree and then end with the same conclusion I was trying to suggest. Keep in mind I was replying to subvenir who said “eh China not bad - they’ve file nothing wrong to me”

[darkwater]

I read your previous message as implying "US is good", rather than "China is bad too". I'm glad I misunderstood you and that we agree then.

[randunel]

I'd like you to familiarise yourself with a legal and societal principle we use in civil law countries:

> de minimis non curat praetor

Which basically means judges are not interested in minor disputes. When you add the USA to the mix, China's actions pale in comparison to the point of being negligible, no point in discussing them given the scale of USA's warmongering, overseas and local crimes. "They never interfered in [...]" is an exaggeration which shows the lack of importance of China's crimes when compared to the USA's, that's all.

The "whataboutism" here isn't a deflection strategy, it shows the hypocrisy and correctly minimises the scale of China's actions in comparison to the hypocrites'.

[nswango]

Whataboutism is a very useful game to reveal whether people are being honest or not.

If someone is vocally complaining about country A doing some oppressive activity, while ignoring country B doing 100x the same activity, the comparison does not forgive or excuse country A, or make them right or admirable.

But it does allow us to conclude that the person complaining is biased. Either they don't care about the oppressive activity and want to attack country A for some other reason. Or they have a particular fondness for country B and will never accept that it does wrong. Or some variation on these.

[vlovich123]

Except it’s op posting whataboutism not me - their claim is that China has done nothing wrong to them with the implication that the USA has. I was highlighting that China indeed likely has done the things they’re complaining about.

[Cookingboy]

>The claim is they don’t engage in warfare when they do, just exclusively in the digital domain for now.

Come on, are you seriously equating hacking to literally bombing and killing people? That's just arguing in very bad faith.

Calling hacking "warfare" is just intellectually dishonest, if not downright disgusting toward the actual victims of American wars.

[dominotw]

how is this not a non sequitur in your head. genuine question.

[stogot]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[cmpxchg8b]

Whataboutism is juvenile.

[tempfile]

This is not whataboutism.

[jb1991]

“China is evil.”

—- “But look at the United States! What about that?”

Is this not just whataboutism? It never adds much to the discussion.

[Doch88]

It would be whataboutism if it was a random Joe saying "China is evil" not literally a company that 1) is in the US 2) has a strong influence in the government and legislations affecting them and their competition.

In this case it's just pointing out the propaganda and the contradiction.

[spaceman_2020]

The Indian wars were border skirmishes at most. Literally 2,000 soldiers dead on both sides combined by official count. Very few civilian casualties.

The 2020 skirmish was way smaller with single digit casualties. Again, almost no civilian casualties because it's a largely empty region in the first place

You really can't compare this to the kind of wars America has started. Casualties - both civilian and military - stood in the hundreds of thousands

[microtonal]

And then we haven't included Bibi-enabling, allowing a genocide to take place and then suggesting it is a real estate opportunity.

[spaceman_2020]

I mean most of Chinese "wars" have been border issues. Most of these border issues themselves stem from badly drawn borders post colonial withdrawal. These are understandable, if not justifiable - countries tug at each other to figure out where their territories start/end. A hostile neighbor at your borders is a legitimate national threat

America's wars have been in countries so far away that they could've never posed any threat whatsoever to America as a nation.

Really not the same thing

[vlovich123]

> America's wars have been in countries so far away that they could've never posed any threat whatsoever to America as a nation

That’s fallacious reasoning that ignores how easy travel is and how cheap an attack can cause massive damage. 9/11 was massive attack from countries far away. We regularly see commercial drones being used in warfare causing huge damage and casualties. There was the 2012 terrorist attack on our CIA facilities in Benghazi.

Terrorism entrenched abroad impacts our security. Is the response we take incorrect and makes it worse / are there things we do to provoke this? Some things yes, other things are like having Israel as an ally which is a culturally, socially and economically aligned power in the region even though it’s hated in the region.

Also don’t forget the US is a major maritime power. China is trying to be, Russia is not. Maritime powers force project more broadly because a) is the nature of being a maritime power b) you have to protect shipping to make sure trade routes are uninmpeded. B is particularly important as it also helps explain the wars (eg the Iran war is about the strait and trade and who collects money, not really about nuclear capabilities).

[potamic]

If you're making a case of this vs what the US has interfered with, it simply does not stack up. Of course it's naive to think they won't start interfering like the US once they gain the leverage, but to a neutral party it likely doesn't matter which of these two ends up as the superpower on the global stage.

[pell]

One, as bad as it is, has its biggest critics live and speak out freely. The other silences, imprisons or kills them.

[potamic]

With the butchering of the Correspondent's Dinner last week, it doesn't seem like things will be the way they were.

[jeltz]

Something which Trump wants to change. Trump has already done a lot of silence critical media and he wants to do more.

[RobotToaster]

Tibet was part of China since the Quing dynasty in the 17th century, it briefly declared independence during the chaos of the Chinese civil wars, but it was never recognised.

Vietnam is usually recognised as a low point in Chinese history.

There's been an ongoing border dispute between China and India for over 100 years, thanks to some questionable line drawing by the British.

Also, referring to the parent comment, of these only the border skirmish with India was within my lifetime.

[yekanchi]

in contrast this is USA's main job is to Interfere in any country it can in favor of its own goals. not related to what the people of that state really want.

north Americans must stay silent about interfering in other states internal issues.

[rikima_]

What people don't know is that China's "war" against Vietnam in 1979 was actually a pledge of allegiance to the United States, a way of demonstrating its stance.

This event was followed by the longest honeymoon period in Sino-US relations, which eventually lead to China's rise.

[21asdffdsa12]

They have colonies and generally aspire to become basically the old british empire as a longterm strategy? At least thats what they push with that "century of humiliation" comeback strategy internally..

[rithdmc]

Did anything else happen in Vietnam in the 70s?

[ksk23]

That is nothing compared to the us

[cpursley]

No new wars in 47 years is a pretty good run vs other major powers.

[21asdffdsa12]

Lets ask xinjang?

[Foobar8568]

Let's ask black people, minorities and foreigns with the wrong skin color in the US?

What about women too ? Especially in red states.

[well_ackshually]

Repression of their own citizens is another subject. It is of course highly problematic and should be condemned as much as possible, but in the same way that if the US decided to repress mormons violently, it remains internal affairs and not an imperialistic threat to the countries around them.

[dudefeliciano]

> it remains internal affairs and not an imperialistic threat

That's pre 1945 style thinking, which is coming back with a vengeance.

[cpursley]

I imagine they are better off and more developed than any of the Muslim regions the US has bombed the ever living crap of continuously over the past 50 years...

[jmyeet]

So I don't support the re-education camps that happened in Xinjiang. Exactly what happened here is still a bit of an unknown because unfortunately there's a ton of misinformation. Whatever did happen, you can go see yourself. It's not a closed region. There are a ton of Youtube videos of people going.

But I hate this talking point for one primary reason: almost nobody who brings it up actually cares about the Uyghurs. It's just a talkijng point.

How do I know this? Because of Palestine. If Benjamin Netanyahu turned around tomorrow and treated Palestinians as Uyghurs were and are treated and developed the region like China does today then he would win the Nobel Peace Prize and Palestinians would be unquestionably better off. It wouldn't be sufficient mind you.

Israel's crimes in Palestine are America's crimes because Israel could not exist without the economic and military support of the US, political cover in the UN and international community and the political will of Us domestically. It would collapse tomorrow if the US withdraw support.

So I don't want to hear a thing from China hawks and skeptics about Xinjiang unless they're louder what Israel is doing to the region.

[cpursley]

> But I hate this talking point for one primary reason: almost nobody who brings it up actually cares about the Uyghurs. It's just a talkijng point.

Exactly, it's just people parroting psyop narrative talking points, Taiwan is another. Repeat something enough and people will eventually believe it.

There's a reason other nations are choosing China over the US/EU (including Muslim and Turkish ones) - there's no moralizing, political requirements, nor bombs.

[greenchair]

Its called a cold war.

[novoreorx]

I'm surprised to see that this hasn't received enough downvotes to be grayed out. It seems those who can downvote on HN mostly believe this BS

[teiferer]

> China has interfered with US elections

Wow, that newest of Trump's distraction talking points made it surprisingly quickly to the uncontended (?) and commonly accepted facts in HN conversations.

[vlovich123]

You’re misinformed. The Biden administration in 2020 declassified that Beijing has prepared to latch influence campaigns in 2020 but backed off. December 2023 a report was released that they had changed track and engaged in influence operations during the 2022 midterms. Biden’s administration also warned about influence operations in the 2024 election cycle. The Biden DOJ unsealed multiple indictments against Chinese intelligence officers, state-backed hackers (such as APT41), and illegal Ministry of State Security agents acting inside the U.S.

You’re very misinformed if you think Trump’s latest blathering are completely wrong. I generally don’t pay attention to him so I don’t know exactly how he lied or exaggerated but I’m sure he did. It doesn’t negate the real and active influence operations China is engaged in

[div]

You’re very misinformed if you think democrats and republicans arent playing the “election influence fiddle” in exactly the same way; legitimising the elections they won, casting doubt on those they lost, all while achieving the main goal of making sure the population doesnt forget who their so called enemies are.

[teiferer]

Lots of assumptions about what I think. I pointed out that Trump put the topic on the agenda a few days ago and now it comes up in HN comments. No more, no less. Whether it has merit is a different question. Point is that the reach of him setting topics goes far which is hard to deny.

[severino]

> China has interfered with US elections

Wow. I bet we'll soon be reading on HN that Biden stole the elections back in 2020.

[Ancapistani]

No one who believed it definitely was has changed their mind, they've just at most gotten quiet about it.

No one who believed it definitely was not has changed their mind, they've just at most gotten quiet about it.

No one who believed it could have been but that the claim has not been proven have changed our minds, we've just decided that there's no way to know what actually happened.

[jmyeet]

"But Tibet!!!" has to be the most intellectually lazy pro-American imperialism argument, particularly when you consider the US history of regime change [1]. Heck, this unwinnable war we're fighting in Iran has a direct through line to not one but two such incidents, specifically the coup in 1953 and US involvement in the Islamic Revolution in 1979 (ie making sure the fundamentalists won instead of the communists). And weirdly a significant number of these puppets end up turning into enemies and far worse problems (eg Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden).

Tibet specifically is funny because one of the things China did was end slavery in Tibet [2]. A large percentage of the population were "serfs" but that was a generous translation because these "serfs" could be traded. You know, like property. Like slaves.

And Vietnam? They had a small border dispute. What did the US do to Vietnam? And Cambodia? And Laos?

But the funniest claim of all here is election interference. The foreign interference in US elections conversation begins and ends with Israel with an honorable mention to Russia for running some Facebook ads. Just last night we had a debate in the Democratic primary for Senate in Michigan, a race that AIPAC proxies (eg UDP) have spent upwards of $60 million. On a primary.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_serfdom_controversy

[dgroshev]

Did the US annex Vietnam or Iran?

There's a qualitative difference between interference and outright annexation, with borders redrawn and cultures violently assimilated.

[PunchyHamster]

At this point with how volatile US is I'd rather have China control Taiwan than US.

And this comment isn't about putting any good light on China. Lately US acts like they want to compensate for Russia fucking up less things around the world