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by xnx 3 days ago
Big screens are an OK workaround for no passenger windows, but they still have to contend with severe structural pressurization challenges, strict emergency evacuation rules, and incompatibility with current airport gates.
11 comments

In a conventional aircraft you sit on the roll axis. In a blended wing body design you can have off-axis motion that can increase motion sickness. Rather than rolling with the longitudinal axis of the aircraft, you move up and down when the aircraft banks. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but an additional difference to deal with.
> In a blended wing body design you can have off-axis motion that can increase motion sickness

This sounds fixable in avionics and training. (Shallow, gradual banks.)

Note, too, that a larger lifting body needs to bank less to execute the same turn as a craft with more loading.

> Note, too, that a larger lifting body needs to bank less to execute the same turn as a craft with more loading.

This is not really helpful for passenger comfort. For a turn to be comfortable, you want the turn to be such that the effective force the passengers feel has no sideways (relative to the passengers) component, and the required roll angle is only a function of the velocity and turning radius. The aircraft design is irrelevant.

The Wikipedia article is mediocre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_flight

Coördination stops lateral passenger movement. It does nothing for up and down. (Coördination is also about more than comfort. It keeps the flow attached to the wing. If your passengers are slipping, so is your wing.) In a roll, with a tubular fuselage, everyone—pilot and passengers—feel about the same vertical Gs. OP’s point is in a flying wing, the folks on the tips will lift up or drop down relative to the pilot and thus experience extra Gs.

My response is (a) this can be controlled in avionics and training, i.e. don’t do that, and (b) now that I think about it, vertical Gs aren’t as sickening as lateral ones.

Specify a maximum roll rate in training and normal-law software and this problem is solved

> Specify a maximum roll rate in training and normal-law software and this problem is solved

I’m wondering whether there are major airfields with traffic patterns that require roll rates that would exceed whatever maximum is desired for comfort. My intuition is that the situation would be tolerable at most airfields but that normal-law limits that are too restrictive could be dangerous.

> major airfields with traffic patterns that require roll rates

One, this is where the more lifting body turning faster with less roll kicks in. Two, I suspect those airfields would also be the last ones to add terminals that can dock with a non-standard plane.

> Coördination

A few years ago, I would your use of diaeresis an admirable quirk. But now, especially given the em-dashes, I'm wondering if you're an LLM overtrained on the New Yorker.

I've been following JumpCrisscross's comments for years, either he's real or he's gone to the trouble of fine-tuning the LLM to sound like himself.

(Myself, I've been doing em-dashes since about 2012, I think I found out by accident that you got them on MacOS from option-shift-minus after finding out by accident you could get en-dash from option-minus)

I learnt on mentour pilot (or maybe captains speaking?) that the airbus most of the time optimizes for comfort by having a constant g force as you ascend or descend or something like that. Unless you are high aoa. So there are systems that so this sort of passenger comfort thing for sure.
Sounds fixable by making the outer seats cheaper.
True, but I have to guess it would feel like a real rollercoaster when making small quick adjustments while landing.
I don't understand your point. Does the wider passenger compartment leads to more extreme transitions at the edges? Is there something else at play I'm not thinking of?
Picture being on the end of the wing and how much you move up or down when the plane rolls.

An airliner entering a 30 degree roll over 3 seconds would have passengers pop up or down 25 feet, with at least +0.3 and -0.3G of acceleration. It would come with a "going over the top of the roller coaster" feeling. This is in addition to the roll / rotation.

Yaw is interesting for similar reasons.

sin(bank_angle) x cabin_width/2 = max_vertical_displacement_at_angle
Just gimbal the seats.
New commercial seating design: Oops, All Pinch Points!
Bean bag chair seats solve every problem.
Gimbal the floor?
Doesn’t fix translation?
Simply noclip the passengers!
Might as well iddqd and idkfa at that point. Or grantme all. Pick your flavor.
That only works if the engines move the planet around the airplane.
Great, so there is the solution!
No way. Looking out the window is one of the joys of flying.

Picking out my house, seeing tiny cars on a remote highway, etc. Even 100+ MP cameras and high resolution screens won't come close to that level of detail.

Only a small fraction of current flyers get window seats. And the view from the isle seat or middle row is non-existent.

And that's before we talk about night flights when there's nothing to see, flights over water when there's nothing to see and so on.

So yes, I'm sure some people like windows. But the majority have demonstrated that they're just fine flying without them.

Not to mention the cretins who put their windows down for the whole flight.
Except when everyone is trying to sleep and one person has their window up
I've been that guy, but only if the scenery is interesting. Still, my attitude is that at noon, people don't need to have a blanket placed over their cage like parrots to make them sleep.

I also was on a flight once that had a very bouncy landing with all the windows down - when I didn't realize we were anywhere near the ground yet. I'm not into tuning out reality to that degree, and don't really feel obligated to help anyone else do so either ;)

Regulations require that window shades be up (open) during take off and landing.

I was sitting next to a passenger once who was asked by the steward to raise the window shade.

While doing it, they asked "why". Answering for the steward I said "it's so Fire and Rescue can see into the plane if we crash". (Which is true, I used to work at airport fire and rescue.)

The steward looked at me with a "that's not helpful" look. My bad :( .

Although I think it's still useful for people to understand things are done for their safety. Not that we expect to crash, and most don't, but every little thing that might improve survival is done. That encourages rather than discourages me.

On a airplane, one man's noon is another man's 4am. Your attitude is socially problematic.
Eye mask is requirement no matter the window position.
I love looking out plane windows at night. Distant lightning storms, cities, fishing boats, highways, country borders lit up and stretching as far as you can see.
But are you willing to pay 10-20% more for that joy? I personally would rather pay less money to fly, not get to see out the window, and spend those dollars on, say, a fancier meal at the destination. Or to have an extra day at the destination if my trip length is money-bound rather than time-bound. Or put those dollars towards an extra hour of childcare. Or … I have so many uses for dollars that give me more utility than “see out the window while flying”.

Where that number comes from: they claim 50% reduction in fuel consumption, which sounds doubtful to me, and fuel is about a third of flight costs, and I’m making some generous assumptions around perfect competition.

My primary destination is Europe <> NZ which is about 24 hours in air so personally I'd give up everything for flat seat. Doesn't have to be business class seat - just something barest of the bare, basically bunk beds.

Thing is with current structure airlines would dilute business class too much and airplane manufacturers would increase density all while decreasing fuel use per passenger - none of which is desirable.

You would change the experience of the glory of flying for food instead? Live while you're alive!
it’s cute you think that’s going to show up in lower ticket costs instead of the company’s profit margin.
Commercial air travel is extremely competitive and has very low margins.
Sounds like a race to the bottom. Mmm bad pun.
We don't really have to guess: as jet engines became more fuel-efficient, inflation-adjusted prices for air tickets dropped. And as oil prices fluctuate, so do ticket prices. There's a bunch of noise in both these trends but the best explanation for them is that competition between airlines drives prices to roughly the cost of provision, of which 30% or so is fuel.
Make the entire hull 'transparent' by wall covering screens. Think The Sphere in Vegas. Some fans to blow the wind through your hair, and now you are gladly paying extra for the bird-like experience ;)
Airplanes might be one of the least ridiculous spaces to wear VR headsets in public.
Skylights, Or floor windows for the freaky
I'm fine with not looking out of the window if the seat is comfortable and I can get to the bathroom more easily. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Window enjoyers such as yourself will still be able to get the window seats.
Make the floor transparent.
Also the screen sizes they are showing have got to be exceedingly heavy.
I know every gram is accounted for in aerospace but OLEDs weighs so little, especially if you can just heatsink into existing metal structures nearby.
I'd wager a bunch of OLEDs will be lighter than built-in windows with all the structural reinforcing necessary to make them safe.
Bullshit. Last time I flew internationally, only two of the eight seats had window access.

Interior isle seats cost as much as window seats in airlines that charge for position. People just want space.

I don’t know how many people are claustrophobic, but for me this would be a non-starter.

Edit: apparently 12.5% of the population has claustrophobia. If 5% of flyers choose a different airline due to simulated windows that would wipe out any cost benefit from fuel savings.

I don't think it is that simple. If a route has mixed offerings and the cheaper option is the windowless plane, it's likely to be full and they'll save on fuel costs for the full flight and can charge extra for a normal flight off hours and come out way ahead.
I give absolutely less than zero f's about no windows for 2" more legroom.
Be nice to not have to deal with that one guy who didn’t close their window when it’s dark cabin time on long multi-Timezone flights; leaving the sun to blare in when you’re really trying to get some shut eye.
Just bring a sleep mask.
I only travel in classes where I know they will provide one.
It would definitely be cheaper to shell out $5 for your own :D
IIRC, minimum one window for each rows is a safety requirement, so that firefighters can see inside a burning plane or something. I think that is believed to be how that fence appeared.
The gates thing was my first thought when I saw the design although a staircase on the tarmac could be a cheap workaround.
Would dropping airplane windows lower radiation exposure somewhat, especially on those polar routes?
No, virtually all the radiation with the exception of UV is passing straight through the airframe. The protection an aircraft body offers is negligible.
What do economy seats look like? I can't imagine they all have wrap-around video...
I imagine they would look similar to what they look now. You will have a 7" monitor in front. You can use it watch movies or look outside.
the biggest challenge would likely be training pilots to a new cockpit and flight profile
I wonder if it makes more sense to just get the latest batch of people doing the military -> civilian transition and starting them off on these
No passenger windows is the correct way to go. The screens can actually show anything, not just replace a window.
Jeez way to ruin of the few remaining joys of flying. Lock everyone in a tin can. You will experience reality through screens only and you will enjoy it
Yes, you will! :-)
Infinite ads in econom
With 60hz pwm. And you can't turn it off

Ah... A dream

Scott Kirby has joined the chat
True - unlike a car, it’s not like one could open a window in a plane.

Just hope they don’t make an “ad-free” window a premium upgrade…

Hell why even travel when you can just see Venice on a screen.
This question is deeper than you think. Until the 20th century, most people didn't travel even a fraction of that many miles per year. The most prolific travelers, such as Mozart, did not travel nearly as much as a person who's commuting to work every day by car or train -- just to sit in a chair in the office instead of at home. When it comes to transportation, we burn fossil fuels and pollute the planet with CO2 for mostly needless reasons.

Our generation thinks we're so much "smarter", but we're living on an ecological credit card that our children will have to pay, not to mention many of the planet's ecosystems, just so we can all have "memories of actually being in Venice" rather than simply a picture of us in Venice, which in the end is the artifact we have. (If we are that insistent on "being everywhere" and checking off a bucket list, perhaps "Total Recall" was onto something LMAO.)

You’re not wrong. Having traveled a fair bit it does eventually turn in to basically a big theme park experience. I still like looking out the window though