[SamoyedFurFluff]

Inquiry: what do you define as politics?

Example: is a trans person in your community political for using their preferred pronouns? Going to their preferred bathroom? Is a gay person political for mentioning their same sex spouse? Is an immigrant political for discussing their immigration process (“sorry can’t make it I have an apt with the embassy”)? Is tits or gtfo political?

I’m not trying to be contrarian this is simply my experiences running like a board game group or something. It’s easy to say no politics but then someone’s normal (eg. My name is Helen, where’s the woman’s restroom?) can cause someone to refuse (“that is clearly a man”!) and now you have a mess on your hands as an organizer.

[mlok]

Maybe it starts when some people start to apply some power on other people ? But all your examples are people talking about themselves : their own lives, their own choices, their own specifics, their own struggles. I would say people can have all this and mention it as long as it stays on the fringe and does not become a topic to debate. This would be outside the scope of the group.

Maybe other people should avoid commenting on peoples life / choices / specifics / struggles, and the atmosphere may stay nice.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

Here’s the thing though: Helen is presenting herself to be called Helen. That’s inherently asking other people to call her Helen and imposing on people to allow a person they see as male to enter a female bathroom! For people who see being transgender as a political issue, being asked to call a trans person by their name is bringing politics into it because theyre being imposed on to recognize a trans woman as female for bathroom purposes.

Thats what I mean when i think “no politics” gets weirdly messy. Like to me it’s not political to let Helen use the female bathroom, but that’s not a given. I’ve also seen situations like, is it political if David brings his boyfriend to the DnD group and they role play a gay couple? What about if Emily, an IRL conservative, says she’s not being political when her lawful good paladin tries to break up the gay couple in the game, because being gay is evil in her DnD religion?

[roenxi]

That actually sounds like a relatively simple one to resolve although the practicality might be a bit poor. The nonpolitical resolution is to use a space with 1 small unisex bathroom and insist that everyone keep it clean. If there isn't a consensus on who gets a special bathroom then there shouldn't be one.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

So forcing everyone to change their meeting place to a venue with a unisex bathroom only is not political, but a trans woman using a woman’s bathroom is political?

Also, Helen still wants to be called Helen and still wants to be referred to as a she. By this logic, everyone must go by they/them? Or what?

[roenxi]

> So forcing everyone to change their meeting place to a venue with a unisex bathroom only is not political, but a trans woman using a woman’s bathroom is political?

Nobody is calling for unisex bathrooms as far as I know, so it can't really be called a political choice. It is just practical - there isn't a consensus about who should get a special bathroom. How can there be a special bathroom if we don't know who is supposed to be using it?

> Also, Helen still wants to be called Helen and still wants to be referred to as a she. By this logic, everyone must go by they/them? Or what?

I don't see how to get away from that one, there is a fundamental rift between the people who think individuals control their identity and the people who think that identity is constructed by someone's peers (see also, shaking off an unwelcome nickname).

But that is an inescapable problem that has dogged humanity since before we were a species so good luck excluding it from any space. If it flares up and diplomacy can't smooth it out then some organiser is just going to have to make a call.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I think you’re missing my point here, which is that “no politics” is an impossible standard for any given social group even if the social group isn’t itself a political movement. There will need to be some measure of baseline politics, like trans people are welcome, jokes about Indian people being smelly are fine, gay people shouldn’t bring their partners around, “retarded” is/isn’t cool to use. Etc.

[ziofill]

These are issues of civility, not politics.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I don’t see what you mean. It really isn’t considered civil to let men use the female restroom when a male restroom is available outside of circumstances like taking one’s young children to the restroom. If one sees a trans woman as a man, it is uncivil for “him” to parade at being a woman.

It is also super normal for couples to roleplay being couples, gay or not. What do you call civil here, to let a (in the mind of an Anti-homosexual conservative) illegitimate couple pretend as if it’s on the level of a legitimate one? Or it’s maybe uncivil for the illegitimate gay guy to come in and force the rest of the group to sit in discomfort with his sexuality?

In my opinion “maintain civility” is equally as fraught as “no politics” because different people have radically different opinions of what these mean. Often times when it comes to “identity politics” it’s mutually exclusive.

[Lord-Jobo]

Politics is the apparatus of civility. It determines how we treat the uncivil, and the direction we push for “new” civility standards.

[gib444]

Politics in groups is like pornography

You can't define it but you know it when you see it

[baxtr]

For me personally the line is crossed when you start making judgments.

Having an appointment with the embassy is not political. Saying the government shouldn’t force people to go to the embassy is.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

That’s incredibly messy, for example, a friend of mine was recently forced out of the country because her Ukrainian refugee visa was revoked. Are you saying this community member cannot be sad or angry about this, because that’s too political? We have to be like damn this is the last board game with Nancy but we can’t talk about why because that’s Polticial?

[baxtr]

I think it’s the opposite of messy tbh. It’s clear cut. You might not like it but that’s a separate discussion.

Re your colleague: I wouldn’t want to talk about it other than showing empathy for the person. At your workplace… outside of work you can talk whatever you want.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

This isn’t a work context. This is a board game meetup, lol. Do you not have friends outside of work?

[baxtr]

Oh I see. so it’s my fault now that I didn’t understand what you were describing.

And no. I don’t have any friends not even at work.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I literally said in my first post that I am speaking in a board game context.

[sethammons]

> sorry, wont make it. Appointment.

Ok

> sorry, wont make it. Stupid appointment.

Banned!

[patanegra]

Interesting, that none of those things have been an issue in the 90s. At least in my country. You just didn't have to think about this, because except gays (who were accepted by young, and frowned up by old), there were no discussion about any of that.

Someone made this into an issue, and politics. And things have got much worse, during all this.