[SamoyedFurFluff]

So forcing everyone to change their meeting place to a venue with a unisex bathroom only is not political, but a trans woman using a woman’s bathroom is political?

Also, Helen still wants to be called Helen and still wants to be referred to as a she. By this logic, everyone must go by they/them? Or what?

[roenxi]

> So forcing everyone to change their meeting place to a venue with a unisex bathroom only is not political, but a trans woman using a woman’s bathroom is political?

Nobody is calling for unisex bathrooms as far as I know, so it can't really be called a political choice. It is just practical - there isn't a consensus about who should get a special bathroom. How can there be a special bathroom if we don't know who is supposed to be using it?

> Also, Helen still wants to be called Helen and still wants to be referred to as a she. By this logic, everyone must go by they/them? Or what?

I don't see how to get away from that one, there is a fundamental rift between the people who think individuals control their identity and the people who think that identity is constructed by someone's peers (see also, shaking off an unwelcome nickname).

But that is an inescapable problem that has dogged humanity since before we were a species so good luck excluding it from any space. If it flares up and diplomacy can't smooth it out then some organiser is just going to have to make a call.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I think you’re missing my point here, which is that “no politics” is an impossible standard for any given social group even if the social group isn’t itself a political movement. There will need to be some measure of baseline politics, like trans people are welcome, jokes about Indian people being smelly are fine, gay people shouldn’t bring their partners around, “retarded” is/isn’t cool to use. Etc.

[roenxi]

I did just write "that is an inescapable problem that has dogged humanity since before we were a species" you know. But nonetheless the trans bathroom one has a simple and nonpolitical resolution until the people who want segregation start making an argument about why some people need a special bathroom. At which point the gender thing probably doesn't matter.

This is a part of why people are hopeful that they can keep spaces focused. Many of the popular "political issues" are more theatre around identity than any real substance.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

So you’re in agreement with me that “no politics” isn’t really a thing in a space? That’s all I’m saying. I’m using transgender issues as an example but my overall point is that there’s no such thing as a space that is focused around something and simply gets a no politics rule. There is always some kind of politics in play simply by nature of politics being an extension of acceptable and unacceptable community, e.g. a person who happens to be trans is the hot topic now, but within my parents generation probably the political act is enforcing a shared bathroom between whites and blacks!

[roenxi]

> So you’re in agreement with me that “no politics” isn’t really a thing in a space?

Yeah, its a meaningless term. The people calling for it are clearly being inarticulately and are trying to say something else.

But the trans bathroom thing has an obvious resolution. The people fighting over it are more about wanting to pick a fight than that there is an actual issue; if the people around me wanted me to use the female bathroom or the male bathroom either is cool. It's a bathroom. They meet a unisex need. If segregation is an issue in the abstract then stop doing that until there is an objective standard to use instead of a subjective one.

[handedness]

'Everyone who disagrees with my obvious resolution only wants to pick a fight over what I deem a non-issue for me, and therefore, everyone.'