[watwut]

> that depends on what your dreams and hopes are, and what you think are valuable goals to pursue, and ultimately your idea of a worthy life.

You are talking about grand ideas here, but I do not mean like that at all. I mean things like "being able to have time to read a book I like or being able to watch tv series". Or, "being able to leave it the relationship gets abusive". Or, "having a little thing of my own I created". Or like "not loosing all my interests and hobbies, being able to keep at least some of them". Or like, "having an hour of uninterrupted time".

I did not mentioned "coolest guy at the party". In relations to moms, we are talking about "not being completely isolated from society for prolonged time" or "being able to socialize often enough to not loose social skills" or "just going to a party once in a while". Or "being able to keep a semi interesting job". Or just "have a topic to talk about, so that the party does not consists of me sitting there having nothing to say feeling like I dont belong".

A lot of those are things that other people don't even see and have no way to judge. They are things you are taking as granted, but if you have kids, you are at risk of loosing those.

[throw310822]

Sure, part of it is basic, rational pleasure seeking. Although you seem to make you case a bit too extremely, as having two or three children doesn't entirely destroy free time and social life, doesn't per se make a person boring nor makes her powerless in case of abusive relationships. It's obvious that having children is a commitment that has trade offs, but the point of the argument is that it seems to have no upside at all. It's not considered socially worthy- in fact you have just described a woman with children as isolated, with reduced social skills, boring, helpless in the face of abuse. Can you name a socially positive trait you attribute to a mother that is dedicated to growing her children? Is there anything in it that inspires admiration and emulation? And otherwise, why would anyone take such a burden?

[alephnerd]

You do realize how physically and mentally demanding pregnancy, childbirth, and recovery is right?

It truly sounds like you think it's a cakewalk and does not have long term side effects. This is why plenty of women just aren't interested in having kids no matter how much money or status is offered.

Women have to deal with Lochia, Perineal Soreness, Uterine Cramps, Pelvic Floor Weakness, significant Hormonal Shifts, Postpartum Depression, Hypertension, Diabetes (yes, pregnancy does induce diabetes), Hemorrhages, and other physical and mental experiences that can take a significant toll.

A generation or two ago, most women had kids because they didn't really have a choice. Now you are seeing what the true choice is amongst a growing proportion of women.

[watwut]

> Although you seem to make you case a bit too extremely, as having two or three children doesn't entirely destroy free time and social life

I described what experience of having one or two children is. All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them.

> nor makes her powerless in case of abusive relationships.

Specifically, yes, it makes you a lot more vulnerable. You are now forever tied to the dad, you have harder time to keep good job (so more dependent financially) and yes, the abuse tend to escalate.

> in fact you have just described a woman with children as isolated, with reduced social skills, boring, helpless in the face of abuse.

Yes that is the worry. The social isolation is very real and painful. The reduction on social skills is observed phenomenon and something openly talked about. And more helplessness is one of the consequences of having children (especially if with wrong person).

> Can you name a socially positive trait you attribute to a mother that is dedicated to growing her children?

I did not said THEY are bad. I said these are impacts and consequences of being mother dedicated to growing her children. So, the positive trait is that they suffer the above for the sake of kids. You are the one implicitly blaming them for natural consequences of the situation.

> And otherwise, why would anyone take such a burden?

Fertility is going down.

[throw310822]

> All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them.

I know plenty of mothers who have a better social life than mine. It's not like mothers are this rare and little known phenomenon. Of course everyone will happily talk about the upsides and downsides (and often more of the downsides) of their lives and choices, that's not the sign of some fundamental difficulty.

> I did not said THEY are bad.

Sorry, I didn't mean this. I mean that you don't seem to be able to mention anything desirable or even enviable in the condition of being a mother: only isolation, helplessness, toil and, as a positive quality, self-sacrifice. I'm not blaming mothers, I'm trying to make you aware that you haven't attributed anything desirable to motherhood, and this feels like a great illustration of the effect the original post is about. If the only things we think a woman achieved by becoming a mother are dependence, a boring life and social isolation, then it's not very surprising at all that fertility rate is plummeting.

Actually, the only reason you manage to come up with for a woman to have children is "fertility is going down"- which is an abstract, societal one. And who cares? Why would it be any individual's problem, why should a woman sacrifice herself because "fertility is going down"?

[watwut]

Fertility is going down was my answer to your "why would anyone take such a burden" question. The answer is, people largely don't.

I described how experience of motherhood was and its real impact on people. I did experienced some of that, I heard real life women talk about these and I have seen sociological studies confirming the same. For example, being stay at home mom is one risk factor for alcoholism. Social isolation is super common.

I described it only because you kept trying to frame the above issues as "status seeking", being the coolest or in grand dreams I just cant relate to. But that is not what women decide on when they decide between having a child or having another child. These down to earth basic impacts are the reason to say "nope, not another one".