[treyd]

Consoles made sense as a product category where specialized graphics hardware was not generally available for consumer PCs.

We have this now, every PC has some kind of graphics hardware, and has for many years. Consoles have been riding on their momentum of their brands, but the technical justification for their product category hasn't existed for 15+ years now.

[dpoloncsak]

The main thing consoles have going for them, imo, is the standardization of hardware. It's very easy to say "Yes this game will run on my console at 60 FPS because its identical to the other consoles where it runs at 60 FPS." Differing builds and drivers are not really a concern in the console world, where-as they are in the PC world.

Some console gamers seem to think PC gaming requires hours of fiddling with settings and drivers. I think we've all had that experience on PC (cough Bethesda cough), but I doubt to the degree the console-side would have you believe. Most AAA games will self-optimize their settings to a playable state, and indie games don't tend to demand more than your standard gaming laptop can provide...but I'm sure we've all been burned some 10-odd years ago buying a Steam game that just wouldn't run on your iGPU...that experience sticks around in the brain a while

[robertlagrant]

That's one thing. The other is price. Consoles can be sold at a loss, particularly early in their 10-year cycle, when early on the loss is high, but close to the end of the cycle the loss is minimal, and so they appear much cheaper.

[nemomarx]

Given recent price rises for console hardware I think they're struggling with that too though. The model doesn't work as well if the components get more expensive over time and not less?

[Narishma]

But PC parts are also getting more expensive, so the difference is still there.

[nemomarx]

Yeah I mean specifically the "sell at a loss, wait for costs to get lower over the generation" thing. if it's at a loss at the start of the generation and component costs only rise, it'll still sell for a loss at the end but also it'll be more expensive for customers. this puts the company in a hard position. a lot of gamers are also used to waiting until the end of the life of a console and getting games used, which might no longer be an option

[dpoloncsak]

Oh, for sure! It's not getting any better with PC part prices lately either...

I've never considered that my old 360 was probably sold at a loss, knowing I'd buy LIVE and all the games they take a cut/license fee off of, but that makes complete sense to me

[Tsiklon]

This cycle is different. Prices have increased for both Sony and Microsoft’s consoles and no higher efficiency versions have been released (ala the PS3, X360).

[robertlagrant]

True. I think there are two new issues this cycle:

1. They are testing what the market will bear. Ubisoft's silly "quadruple-A game" rhetoric and executives saying "people will have to get used to $100 games" is them testing the water. This should pull back, as most people don't want games that cost that much, unless they're really amazing. They aren't (currently). I imagine this same thinking is going on in hardware-land.

2. Current RAM/GFx card prices are driving up prices all round. It should still be true that for the same spec, console components should get cheaper over time, but I can imagine it's less of an effect at the moment with all the AI data centres hoovering up manufacturing capacity.

[CrimsonCape]

It seems like their strategy will be to just raise hardware and media prices. Just keep doing the same at a higher cost. If it's a loss leader today, it will stay a loss leader tomorrow, just at higher cost. The question is whether the customers keep showing up at the higher prices.

[robertlagrant]

Indeed. No one expects console manufacturers to take unlimited losses, but yes, the price at the end of it all is what will matter.

[galleywest200]

Sony released the PS5 Slim earlier this cycle.

[thinkingQueen]

Isn’t PS5 Pro a higher efficiency version?

[Narishma]

No, it's a more powerful version.

[Izkata]

During college, before I switched to linux, the DRM packaged with Spore bricked my computer in the middle of a semester. That's what turned me off of PC gaming.

[fluoridation]

This is a nitpick, but "to brick" means that hardware becomes totally unusable, like an expensive brick. You turn it on, and it does nothing. I'm going to assume that this is not what you meant, and that the OS just got hosed, requiring a reinstallation.

[trencedamp]

That's unfortunate and infuriating I'm sure

[bsimpson]

This is also why Steam hardware matters.

If something runs on a Steam Deck, you can be sure it will run on your >= Steam Deck-equivalent device.

[lightedman]

"Differing builds and drivers are not really a concern in the console world"

Let me tell you, as someone that repairs a TON of XBox 360s, this comment is very, VERY wrong. The GPU isn't even the same revision between the same batch runs. Did you get Xenos? Zeus? Jupiter? That determined one set of things needed for install/refurbish. Is that a Valhalla motherboard in your hands? That just limited you to a very narrow and specific set of hardware you could utilize.

Oh and performance between all of those models varied WILDLY. Silicon lottery is a fucking JOKE on the XBox 360.

[vel0city]

There's a ton of differences that matter to refurbishing, no doubt. Different eMMCs, different chips on the board, different cooling needs, different board layouts, different ports, and more.

What really mattered to end users though was "this disc says Xbox 360. Can I put it in the box at home that says Xbox 360 and have the game run properly?" This didn't really matter if it was a Jasper motherboard or not. The game ran practically the same from a user perspective regardless of which board revision you had. I can go pick up any generation of 360 that still powers on and any 360 game off the shelf and it'll work pretty much how the developer intended.

Meanwhile, if you don't really know anything about computer specs, who knows if a game will run on your computer? This was a $3,000 gaming PC, it should run anything! I bought it in 2002 though, is that a problem? The Radeon 9700 Pro from that red GPU company, probably better than that Radeon RX9070 right? Bigger number and all, and after all its Pro. And its got 128 MEGA bytes, probably better than that other card's 16 something or other.

[dpoloncsak]

I'm not trying to disagree with you, I'm not too knowledgeable in this field. Even assuming what you said is true, I don't think it aligns with the public image of consoles. The general non-technical gamer doesn't know the difference.

[realusername]

> It's very easy to say "Yes this game will run on my console at 60 FPS because its identical to the other consoles where it runs at 60 FPS." Differing builds and drivers are not really a concern in the console world, where-as they are in the PC world.

It used to be a selling point of console indeed, however nowadays console are separated by Pro/Non-pro, different revisions and you aren't really guaranteed on how well your game is going to run unless you watch a Youtube let's play of the game you want.

[naravara]

Specialized graphics hardware hasn’t been the selling point of having a console since at least 2002 with the first XBox.

The selling point of consoles is that they’re a software platform, with development incentives, standardized hardware, standardized UI conventions, and a centralized storefront to be able to conveniently and natively play stuff on your TV without fussing about.

Valve has barely started to muscle in on the platform benefits of gaming on a PlayStation or XBox, but the more they start to do so the more they end up making design trade-offs that start to look like another console.

[ColdStream]

I will give it to Sony with the Ps3, at least the Cell was an attempt at something different hardware wise. But they also learned the lesson that building walled gardens of technology can keep people out just as easily as they try to keep them in.

[afavour]

That doesn't really make sense. Consoles have always occupied a different space to PCs, not least because they plug into living room TVs. Very few people are going to trade that for a (considerably more expensive) PC.

Gaming PCs also require specialized knowledge, more maintenance, etc etc. Consoles are pick up and go. I very much doubt they're dead yet.

[Rohansi]

You'll likely see a lot more Steam Machine-like PCs because of this. SteamOS fixes most of the problems you mention. Price is the new normal and you should expect next gen consoles to come closer to it. It's not a bad deal anyway when you consider the bigger library, cheaper games, and no subscription required.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine

[afavour]

At that point I’d say we’re talking about a PC/console hybrid anyway so the distinction gets a little less useful.

[Rohansi]

But why? The Steam Deck and Machine are pick up and go like consoles by default. Only a small minority care that it's actually a PC you can use for things other than games.

The only thing that sets them apart is Steam's hardware isn't locked down.

[WhyNotHugo]

> Gaming PCs also require specialized knowledge, more maintenance, etc etc.

If you want to build it yourself: sure. But less technically inclined folks can just buy one pre-assembled from a computer shop.

[afavour]

You still need to stay on top of requirements as time passes though. Will game X run on my machine? By comparison a console game is for a generation of a console or it's for the next.

[moger777]

I think they still make sense for the non technical user. Having an idiomatic control makes setup far easier than on a PC and the UI for a console is designed to be used with a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse. This makes dealing with a television easier. I don't see consoles disappearing ever for those reasons.

[mathieuh]

Also isn't a huge (maybe the largest?) audience for gaming these days children playing games like Roblox and Minecraft and Fortnite etc? For whom it's parents buying the equipment, so unless you have a tech-savvy parent they're likely to just buy a console.

[inigyou]

The largest gaming market, by about an order of magnitude, is mobile games like Candy Crush. But we should differentiate the market further because most of us probably don't want to be making Candy Crush.

[naravara]

I think those games are mostly played on tablets these days.

But there might be a generational change coming. Basically the entire cohort of parents in my kids’ kindergarten is much more intentional about what kinds of games they’re playing and how they’re spending their “screen time.” I see a lot more people just giving their kids retro-consoles and emulation rather than setting them loose on the kiddie grooming and dopamine receptor-frying skinner-boxes.

I suppose it’s one of the benefits of having a generation of parents who grew up with formative memories of playing video games themselves combined with a growing awareness of UI dark patterns and their long term impacts on cognitive development and well-being.

[cwnyth]

-----

[nirvdrum]

I don’t think the appeal is just to the less technically inclined masses. I’m a developer with a MacBook Pro and a Linux workstation. Proton has come a long way, but consoles just work for the most part; I never have to question whether the game will function and perform well on the console (setting aside the random buggy messes we see).

Then there’s the convenience. I don’t want to play games where I work. I want to play on my TV. I have no interest in moving my workstation into my living room. Streaming with Moonlight works well enough, but there’s still lag. Even if I wanted to move my PC to the living room, the setup isn’t as nice. The Steam Machine has HDMI CEC and can power on with a controller — all the major consoles have had that for years.

Even if I accepted all that, no one else in my household could play anything while I’m working on my computer.

Things are a little weird now. If I’m going to have to go all digital, Steam Family is by far the best option of those with DRM. But, due to the astronomical cost of components, consoles are still pretty attractive.

[inigyou]

> I never have to question whether the game will function and perform well on the console

Thanks to recent moves by Sony, this is no longer the case!

[nirvdrum]

Can you please elaborate? The recent moves I’ve seen have been announcing a shift to digital-only and another about clawing back movie purchases. Neither are appealing to me, but also aren’t related to game performance or compatibility.

[inigyou]

The obvious next step will be to claw back game purchases. Come on now. This is extremely obvious.

[bluescrn]

Consoles don't have true 'generational leaps' any more either, the huge leaps forward in tech used to drive excitement/sales.

Now we get incremental improvements, cross-generation games, and backwards compatibility. And AAA game development isn't exactly doing well these days.

[trencedamp]

Exactly. Indie development is where it's at. The best game I played in the last five years was probably A Short Hike. It moved me and inspired me to get back into game dev and it was made by one person

[mvkel]

> Consoles made sense as a product category where specialized graphics hardware was not generally available for consumer PCs.

This has almost never been true. GPUs existed, and were being used, before the N64.

Your comment also begs the question that the console consumer has transitioned to a gaming pc. They haven't. Gaming PC sales (and hardware) are at all-time lows, except for GPUs, which should probably be renamed to Model Training Units.

I would posit that what we're seeing is a reflection of a content problem, not hardware. Video games have gone the way of Hollywood, with sequels and derivatives, and an uninterested consumer base. People would rather watch a YouTube video of someone playing a video game than play a video game.

[Sohcahtoa82]

> GPUs existed, and were being used, before the N64.

Video cards existed, but 3D accelerators didn't really catch on until the 3dfx Voodoo, which came out about the same time as the N64. Even Quake II which came out a year later still offered software rendering.

> Your comment also begs the question that the console consumer has transitioned to a gaming pc. They haven't.

I'm only a single point of data, but I was a console gamer that transitioned to PC gaming, but that transition happened during the N64/PSX era. It was near the end of the PS2 cycle that I was full PC.

> Gaming PC sales (and hardware) are at all-time lows

Because prices are at all-time highs. I have a monster PC that I probably spent around $6,000 building, but with prices skyrocketing, it'd run me $10,000 to build it today. A few months ago, it would have been $11,000.

> Video games have gone the way of Hollywood, with sequels and derivatives, and an uninterested consumer base.

In the AAA world, this is true. So many gamers that only play Call of Duty, Fortnite, Minecraft, or a sports game. For CoD and the sports games, they reliably buy the latest release every year despite the lack of anything really being different.

But the Indie world is huge and full of innovation. Balatro, Stardew Valley, Disco Elysium, Slay the Spire, Cuphead, I could go on.

> People would rather watch a YouTube video of someone playing a video game than play a video game.

I don't think that's true at all. Maybe for high-level play, or if the streamer has highly entertaining commentary, but otherwise definitely not true.

[ColdStream]

Not only that, I remember when it was announced that Quake 3 would require a GPU - no software fallback. That was in 1998/99-ish. It wasn't a huge ask but it did signal the future very clearly.

[trencedamp]

But back then you had to have a PC and experience with it to install drivers, install games, mess with configs etc.

The draw of consoles was the ease of use. N64 problem solving was just off/on

[ColdStream]

Yeah, Windows 98 wasn't exactly a road solid experience. It wasn't until Win 2000/XP that the whole thing started to feel much more solid thank to the NT Core.

[Chinjut]

What PC GPU was in mainstream consumer use before the N64?

[ssl-3]

The 3dfx Voodoo1 was very mainstream (and market-defining, even). It predates the N64.

[Sohcahtoa82]

This is incorrect.

N64 came out in the USA in September 1996.

3dfx Voodoo was released to consumers in October 1996.

[ssl-3]

Oh noes!

[mschuster91]

The thing with PCs is... they are open. Open means piracy and more importantly it means cheats.

A console is a far easier thing to defend against cheaters than a PC - absent true hardware vulnerabilities (which become more and more expensive, now that stuff like voltage glitching, clock cutting and whatnot is all known and accounted for), you are basically limited to botted input and AI-assistance based on what can be seen on the screen.

[ColdStream]

The last generation where there really felt to be a big advantage to consoles was with the Xbox 360. Having Xbox live integrated at an OS level for cross game chat, messaging and music control was something that felt genuinely unique at the time and something that could only come from top down strategy. But Steam caught up with all of that and consoles didn't really innovate forwards from that either.

The last big thing on consoles would have been the standard high speed SSD's and even then it hasn't been exploited as much as one would have liked. Ratchet and Clank : Rift apart did, but it feels like an exception, even then it works pretty well on the PC version even without the custom compression hardware.

[dabinat]

Another appeal of consoles is being able to sit on a couch and play. Most PC chairs are not as comfortable.

[p_j_w]

>Consoles have been riding on their momentum of their brands

This is entirely wrong. Consoles have been riding consistency and ease of use. Sure, if you look just at the spec sheet consoles make no sense. But when you look at the whole experience combined with price, this is where consoles have always won. It's always been easier to hook my console up to the TV and start playing. The Steambox closes this gap with the overall experience, but still loses out on price.

If consoles continue to enshittify, this might change.