[jeroenhd]

One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to act sociable and the rest of the world.

Creating a separate app would work, but all existing Firefox users would have to download a second Firefox browser app, probably sync their accounts if they want to keep their data, and then remove the old one manually. You'd end with a Google Meet/Microsoft Teams situation (where one app is labeled "new" and it confuses the hell out of everyone).

Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are.

Then there's the (what I can only presume to be illegal) Apple Tax you need to pay to distribute an app outside of the app store (which is what the Github repo linked is doing), which is an amount paid per user that downloads an app outside of the app store. Epic has promised to cover that cost (out of spite, probably) for one of the major alternative stores, but if they go back on their promises you're suddenly paying Apple so people can use your free app on the phones they bought.

There are also other issues (Apple's arbitrary testing requirements, for one); Apple has once again succeeded in implementing the law in such a way that it's impossible to exercise your rights. Until the next big Apple lawsuit about this, I don't expect browser companies to bother with a non-Safari overlay.

[wolvoleo]

Hmm it worked for Microsoft and other companies have also done a switch as you pointed out (I remember facebook splitting off messenger and later putting it back).

> Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are.

Yeah that's a bit insane.

[hagbard_c]

Well, there's a solution to this: ditch that fruit phone until the fruit factory allows owners to use their hardware with the software they want. Let them click some boxes that yes, they understand that they'll leave the boundaries of fruity fruitland and beyond this checkbox dragons abide so abandon all hope all who enter here but otherwise let them install the software they want.

...

Yes, I thought so too, they won't, not without a court order. Now that several courts have ordered such and there is a precedent which makes clear that those dragons aren't all that fierce the fruit factory shouldn't have any excuses any more but that doesn't bother them just as long as the true believers keep on coming for their indulgences. Hence, ditch that thing and maybe they'll get the message.

[ebiester]

Or, perhaps, apple users are rational actors that have different weights to their tradeoffs than you.

The last time I checked Android, the security and privacy story was much worse than Apple. Further, it's not just me who has to make the change - it's the family I share photos and videos and other things.

Yes, I would prefer to have other App Store options, but it is balanced against other issues. (And yes, I have owned an Android phone before - every time I buy a new phone I compare the two again.)

[hagbard_c]

Nope, they're not rational actors by supporting marketing-driven limitations. These limitations are not needed to create a well-working device, they're only there to keep the profits up because heavens forbid, someone might offer an alternative which allows users to get their software fix without paying their pound of flesh to the app store.

The example you gave on it not just being you who needs to change but the family I share photos and videos and other things [with] is all the more proof that you shouldn't touch these mobile prisons with a 3-metre pole. I share my photos and videos and other things with family as well but I don't care what they're using to access them 'cause I use a (self-hosted, but that is not essential) web service for it. No lock-in, no nothing. If you want to view those photos on your Commodore-64, have at it. There's even apps you can use, including one for those stuck on fruit phones.

I don't believe the 'security and privacy' story the fruit factory pushes, there've been far too many examples to disprove the narrative. Not that I trust Google, mind you. I use Android but I do not use Google, do not have a Google account, don't have Google services (etc.) on my devices.

[wolvoleo]

I'm on Android for this reason but it's not ideal either, Google is clamping down a lot. But yeah an Apple phone just won't work for me, there are wayyy too many things I need daily that won't work on Apple.

[hagbard_c]

Yes, it seems Google has been oogling that juicy fruity profit margin thinking mine!. I recently got a new phone and given that I tend to use the things for about 8-10 years it might well be my last Android device if they make it (close to) impossible to avoid them. The new phone - a Motorola G75 - is de-Googled just like all my other devices, I did not allow it any internet access before taking off (as in 'disabling', the thing is not rooted yet) everything Moto and Google and replaced it with everything F-Droid. It is still on Android 14 and does not try to get me to install any updates 'cause the updater is also disabled - something which many people seem to think is impossible. I got another G75 and will try to get something like Lineage or maybe most of Graphene to run on it.

Should Android become too distasteful I guess the next step will be a Linux device of some sorts. I have about 8-10 years to find or build one assuming these G75s hold up like the Redmi Note 5 Pros did (used them for 8 years) and the Motorola Defy/Defy+ before that (used for 9 years). All those devices still work, one of the 2 Redmis is my new 'dangerous work phone', the other plays Linux server since it no longer has a screen (which is what happens when you lend it out...). One of the Defy's is in use as a trailer camera, also without a screen. Android devices remain useful long after the market has given up on them.

[wolvoleo]

It's similar to what I do yes. I buy normal Android devices but I use ADB to get rid of most of the google stuff. In Google Play Services I just don't sign in and I disable all the data collection. It's not ideal but the problem is I really need the push service for work. And my devices are not supported by AOSP distros.

I install my apps using Aurora and F-Droid.

[realusername]

> One reason is that Apple does not permit regional binaries, so you cannot use the same listing in the EU/Japan/Brazil/whatever other place may force Apple to act sociable and the rest of the world.

Well, sounds like the next lawsuit waiting to happen then if the regulations can't be applied because of that

[fsuts]

On android Mozilla already have Firefox and Firefox focus and Firefox nightly

So having two versions on iOS would be fine, and as apps can be limited to only show up in some regions wouldn’t be confusing as many would just see one

[zeratax]

Would they actually need to distribute this app outside of the appstore?

[wolvoleo]

No, in the EU they should be able to distribute this

[jeroenhd]

Need to? Probably not. Reynard isn't on the app store, though, so Mozilla's efforts wouldn't be very comparable if it wasn't.

Plus, iOS can really use a solid F-Droid alternative.

[ghusto]

Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. I've been defending Mozilla for years, but enough's enough.

> but all existing Firefox users would have to download a second Firefox browser app, probably sync their accounts if they want to keep their data, and then remove the old one manually. You'd end with a Google Meet/Microsoft Teams situation (where one app is labeled "new" and it confuses the hell out of everyone)

You're making it sound like a problem, but those actions are trivial. You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS "well okay, but you know you'll have to download another browser! And even sign-in again!". You really think they care?

> Furthermore, developers cannot actually use the released app they've made if they're in the US, where a lot of Firefox devs are.

They absolutely can, because they're free to install development builds, which is what they should be testing anyway. Regardless, if development starts migrating slowly to the EU, that's a natural consequence.

> Then there's the (what I can only presume to be illegal) Apple Tax you need to pay to distribute an app outside of the app store

This is the only real issue, but even then I'd say Mozilla should take the money they're spending on their current nonsense and spend it here instead. "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all". Really? Prove it. Furthermore, if we role over on this because of the obviously anticompetitive malicious complience Apple is showing, they win. This is the first step to getting them to remove that fee.

[jeroenhd]

> You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS

Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS.

> which is what they should be testing anyway

Having a large part of your team be unable to reproduce bugs is a significant development issue. Some of these operating system features are simply not available outside of the EU.

If it were as easy as you're suggesting, Mozilla would have already done it. Google would have already ported Blink over, or Brave, or whatever browser you prefer. So far I think only Ladybird is really trying to go for a custom browser engine, though app store distribution will be an issue until they can pass enough tests (as Apple has decided your browser is not a real browser if it doesn't pass a certain threshold of existing tests).

[ghusto]

> Having a large part of your team be unable to reproduce bugs is a significant development issue

But I just said, they are free and able to use development builds, regardless of geographical location. As far as I know, the OS is exactly the same, just has certain things disabled depending on region (for example you can breifly see the iPhone mirroring in the EU the first time, before it disapears).

> Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS.

Why bother with any of it then? If it's hopeless and not enough people want it, why even bother?

[wolvoleo]

> I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS.

Let's put this another way, would many people be interested in a full blown adblocker like ublock origin? Because that's what I have on Firefox on Android.

[jeroenhd]

With how few iOS users I see the existing content blockers already, shockingly few people as far as I can tell.

I want to see Brave and Firefox fight it off in an ad-blocking-mobile-browser competition to get some more market share, but it seems like iOS users are content with just Safari and ads.

Let me put it another way: why has no other browser company released a browser yet? Mozilla is only a small player, after all.

[wolvoleo]

Yes but current content blockers aren't very effective on iOS.

I think the things mentioned in that open source report, basically Apple making it as hard as possible, plays a big role there.

[RunSet]

> Firefox has struggled to get the sliver of market share they have today. I highly doubt that there are that many people like you and me who crave a real Firefox engine on iOS.

Egg on Apple's face for expending so much effort to deny so few people something they don't actually want.

[jeroenhd]

So far market demand hasn't pushed Brave, Opera, Vivaldi, or anyone else in this direction. It's not just Mozilla, who is often late to these kinds of developments.

[lmorchard]

> I'd say Mozilla should take the money they're spending on their current nonsense and spend it here instead.

Mozilla makes roughly $500m per year with maybe $1.5b in the bank. That's about 1-2 orders of magnitude short of what would be required to poke Apple in the eye and make them feel it.

[wolvoleo]

Yeah but what they'd be paying to Apple would be a tiny part of that.

[wolvoleo]

> You're making it sound like a problem, but those actions are trivial. You tell someone who's dying for a non-webkit browser on iOS "well okay, but you know you'll have to download another browser! And even sign-in again!". You really think they care?

Yeah this, I honestly couldn't care less. On Android I have switched between nightly and regular several times. It's a 2 minute job.