[justapassenger]

I’m pretty sure rest of starlink customers will get similar treatment in the future. Their potential customer base is limited and it’s only ISP that literately burns their backbone network every few years and has to replace to keep it running.

On top of that, their claims it’s profitable does some heavy lifting with how to account for the cost of launching rockets.

It’s extremely cool product and very useful for many customers. But sustainability of current pricing is very questionable.

[latchkey]

it has already gone up in price two times since i got mine. i still happily pay for the convenience and safety of having internet on my campervan in the middle of a national forest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[mauvehaus]

What harm are you worried about coming to in the middle of a national forest that having the internet could possibly save you from? You're in a van, for heaven's sakes. You can roll up the windows, lock the doors, and/or drive off from most dangers save a breakdown or a wildfire, and the internet won't save you from a wildfire.

I've tent camped a lot on forest service land (and BLM land) both out west and in the east. Generally having arrived there by human power. Not once have I been confronted with a situation where the internet would've added to my safety in any way whatsoever.

[scottyah]

You really can't think of ANY situations that might be helped with instant communication with the outside world? If that's true, please don't go into national forests or BLMs anymore, I don't want my taxes to be spent looking for your body.

[mauvehaus]

It's more that if you're that far off the beaten path, you'd better be prepared to hunker down and live with any kind of emergency that comes up for several hours up to a couple of days anyway. Which, for the record, is my standard and expectation for myself.

On the other hand, if you're dealing with being eaten by a bear, having a dangerous encounter with another person, or are at risk of being overrun by wildfire or flooding, a phone isn't likely to help much with the next 30 seconds of your possibly soon-to-be-abbreviated life. That's the risk you (and I) take by being out in the woods. You can't mitigate all or even much of that with technology.

[mrweasel]

I won't suggest that you can't find situation where having Starlink wouldn't be nice, but as another comment suggests: It's increasingly a niche product. Starlink may not be able to survive on being a product that provides internet access for campers and rural populations. That market might not be large enough to sustain the Starlink satellite fleet. There are entire countries where even to most remote areas have at least 2G cell service and fiber is frequently available even out in the country side.

Defence contracts are more likely than anything to be what keeps the satellites in orbit.

[latchkey]

> It's increasingly a niche product.

I'd argue it is going to go the other way. It is going to find more and more broad usage over time.

[mrweasel]

There's going to be more and more use cases, but only in select geographical areas. There's no real reason to pick Starlink over e.g. 5G, when 5G is cheaper and cover 99% of your locations. You can then pick Starlink, microwave, or 2G (if you don't need a lot of data) for those special cases where 5G doesn't have coverage.

Then you have the truly remote areas where you have no choice, it's Starlink or OneWeb, but that's still a niche.

[latchkey]

i can think of 1000 reasons to need to call for help. heck, two months ago i fell on my skateboard and shattered my femur at the hip. it sure was nice to be able to call 911 and have someone come pick me up given that i couldn't drive anywhere. my van was parked right at the skatepark and there was no way i was going to drive. obviously not skating in a national park, but it isn't out of the question to not have a major injury in a remote location.

but it isn't just about harm, as i said "convenience". i like being able to download detailed maps for trail hiking on-demand, and being off-grid and still able to be working (as my job requires me to be online).

[traceroute66]

> obviously not skating in a national park, but it isn't out of the question to not have a major injury in a remote location.

It isn't out of the question to have a major injury in a remote location.

But the fundamental problem would be being on your own in a remote location, not being unable to call 911.

Yes in your skating example, you "only" fell and shattered your femur.

But what if you fell and hit your head or landed and hit your spine ?

Or what if you had a heart attack ?

You would not be in a position to call 911 then, would you.

Being on your own in a remote location is not a risk problem that you can solve with any amount of technology.

[latchkey]

> You would not be in a position to call 911 then, would you.

I never said anything about being alone.

[traceroute66]

> I never said anything about being alone.

I would humbly suggest that you are moving the goalposts.

It was implied in your what-if post, i.e. "I fractured my femur in the skate park, but what if I was in a remote location".

You can also get cheap satellite dumb-phones with pay-as-you-go SIM cards. No need to be tied to a Starlink sub if your primary concern is about being able to summon help in an emergency in a remote location. All you need is your location and you can get that from any satellite dumb-phone.

Also with multiple humans there are other options. Unless you are somewhere truly remote, a casual walk a few minutes back down the trail will likely find you some other humans who can assist and summon help.

Stating the obvious but also in a remote location, 911 will not turn up instantly, so people in the group should have suitable training for remote first aid and be prepared to give it for an extended period whilst waiting for 911.

[runarberg]

If American infrastructure is in such a bad shape that it requires starlink to make emergency calls, then I think we have bigger problems.

And please, when you go hiking, download and print all the maps you need before you depart, and share a detailed plan with somebody able to call help, including a time estimate where you will make contact.

As for work. Please just take time off and take a proper vacation. By being constantly on call you will burn out at a much faster rate.

[latchkey]

> download and print all the maps you need before you depart

If I'm living and traveling in my campervan for months on end, which is something I love to do, having starlink enables me to not have to plan. I can download the maps, hop out of my van and go. That's my own ideal freedom, I'm not tied to planning the same way you are.

> Please just take time off and take a proper vacation. By being constantly on call you will burn out at a much faster rate.

Wow, thanks for the advice. It is wild to me that you've got enough of an ego to say this to someone you don't know.

[bakies]

also all the flagship phones have emergency satellite connections now, so it's not even the emergency bit, it's just about having full broadband internet

[latchkey]

powered by... starlink. https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/satellite-phone-service

[kotaKat]

and the hilarious part is if you're along the US-Canadian border (or in most of Maine), you're in this magical 1.9GHz PCS coordination zone that they can't provide T-Satellite service in, and provide basically zero information that that's a thing.

https://i.imgur.com/pagujRS.png

this is a map of the t-satellite coverage from the t-mobile coverage map, just the t-sat layer.

[bakies]

Apple's SOS features are going to go to AmazonLEO and are currently globalstar. Google's SOS goes to a geosync orbit. This is some t-mobile feature.

[1234letshaveatw]

Same. I also have never been confronted with a situation where 911 would've added to my safety in any way whatsoever. Why does 911 even exist?

[latchkey]

see below. 911 just saved my life. not even counting the amount of pain i was in. i had internal bleeding and ended up need transfusions due to my red blood cell count dropping below 7.

[1234letshaveatw]

Sorry, that didn't happen to me directly, doesn't count

[mauvehaus]

> Why does 911 even exist?

Because liquor stores get robbed sometimes, but they aren't usually found in the middle of a national forest.

[runarberg]

I also don’t get the convenience part. If you are in a national forest, put on your boots, open the door and go for a walk, breathe the fresh air and touch some grass. Why is a low latency high speed internet connection convenient in this setting, you should be happy to be able to send text messages and make phone calls, as I assume you‘ll be spending most of your time enjoying nature or sitting around the campfire.

[latchkey]

i'm in a campervan... i can be off-grid for many weeks and i also have a $dayjob.

starlink enables me to get the best of both worlds, which is a huge reason why i love it so much. don't knock it until you try it. =)

[runarberg]

Sure, I am glad for you. I‘m sure there are dozens of people in your situation. Now if we can only get a whole constellation of satellites to accommodate every possible niche.

[latchkey]

Now your bias becomes clear. Should have stated that in the first place.

[grim_io]

At some point, everyone becomes price-sensitive.

[latchkey]

"everyone" seems like a stretch of imagination. i'm not rich, but i'd still pay 2x (the amount mentioned) what i'm paying now.

[grim_io]

So you are two more 2x increases from cancelling? :D

comment edited from one 2x increase, because math and language are hard.

[mattmaroon]

Their potential customer base is literally everybody because they are the only ISP that can cover the entire globe. Everybody’s potential customer base is technically limited because there are only so many humans, but they have the least limited potential customer base of anything that exists.

[justapassenger]

For any dense populated area, starlink cost explodes exponentially to support customers there, while fiber/5G is linear.

You cannot just put more satellites on top of cities, as they aren’t geostationary (which is why they’re fast), so you need to add insane amount of satellites, that would do nothing most of the time, when they’re not on top of densely populated area.

[mattmaroon]

Fair point. But they still have more potential customers than any other individual ISP. Lack of potential customers is not their limiting factor.

[novafunc]

Yes, but the primary reason for Starlink is for areas with poor traditional ISPs.

If you had a choice between Fiber or Starlink, you’d choose Fiber.

So as traditional ISPs improve service and coverage, Starlink becomes less in demand.

[StephenMelon]

The killer app is military usage, so they just need enough consumer and b2b demand to keep what they charge governments within what they can justify to taxpayers

[Alpha3031]

Which militaries are you thinking and how much do you anticipate them spending and/or being willing to try and justify?

[grim_io]

Sounds like a great long-term investment.

Starlink would only make sense if the world was not getting more and more concentrated around densely populated areas.

[scottyah]

I think it'd be easier for Starlink to start building and deploying wide area ground stations (like 5g towers or something) to serve urban areas than it would take all the other telcos to deploy satellites.

[Alpha3031]

Why in the world would any MNO or WISP choose satellite backhaul for urban areas when their next tower is presumably only a few kilometres over (as opposed to tens of kilometres in more regional areas)?

[scottyah]

I don't know, that's an interesting, albeit unrelated question. Do you have an answer?

[grim_io]

Why are the satellites required at all?

Telcos manage many multiples of Starlink's traffic just fine over terrestrial high-bandwidth optic fiber.

[scottyah]

They really don't manage the traffic well over terrestrial lines for the globe, that's why starlink, iridium, viasat, even directv have all used satellites. Billions of taxpayer money and even more private funding have been devoted to bringing lines to rural areas and the area covered is still so small.

[ruszki]

First, they would need global coverage for that. Because looking at this map tells a different story: https://starlink.com/gb/map

It’s still the best option, but far from “global”. Also Iran is an obvious lie with that “coming soon” color, so god knows what else isn’t true on this.

[inemesitaffia]

They have global coverage. You don't need a map to know that.

[kingleopold]

At some point in next decade they can literally be the biggest ISP by far, insane potential always. It's all about how long it takes to get there

[bakies]

if you're in a city (where most people live) it'll never be cheaper to get this than fiber

[scottyah]

Tell that to the Ukrainians and Syrians.