[smugglerFlynn]

  > My goals for the end of 2027 are as follows:

  > Stop making stupid mistakes. I want to be able to finish a task fully without missing or skipping a step. One way to do this is to make a plan for everything you do, and only do that thing. Nothing else.

If you are neurodivergent or have other things influencing you mentally, you are _NOT_ going to snap out of it. You are not going to just build a better planning system one day.

HN comments are _NOT_ going to help debugging your mental state. People here have trouble agreeing on engineering, product and business practices they specialise in. They are _NOT_ going to guide you in the right direction on mental health topics.

Please OP, close HN, reach out to people, get help, and (importantly) learn to navigate your mind, not fight with it.

[jrowen]

> HN comments are _NOT_ going to help debugging your mental state.

Nice paradox you've created there.

> People here have trouble agreeing on engineering, product and business practices they specialise in. They are _NOT_ going to guide you in the right direction on mental health topics.

I don't know that that follows logically. Whatever people they might reach out to in the real world -- be they friends, relatives, therapists -- also actually disagree about things and don't have all the answers. HN comments come from the same general pool of people, who also potentially have experiences and insights a like-minded individual might find valuable.

> You are not going to just build a better planning system one day.

No but you may be able to over time, through trial and error, and connecting with others and hearing about their experiences. I don't think there's anything wrong or unhealthy about exploring it in this fashion and I don't understand your choice of tone.

I do agree that setting a goal for the year of "not making stupid mistakes" is a (stupid?) mistake. It is more of a lifelong journey and process, of striving rather than achieving, and not setting unrealistic expectations for yourself.

[vector_spaces]

Ooh, slick rhetorical moves you just executed. You couched your comment in the jargon of formal logic, and in doing so situated the parent under a convenient ad-hoc pseudo-formalization where you could paint them a raving illogical, thereby dismissing most of what they wrote through low-effort counterexamples. Mathematical certainty on your side, you make a chivalrous concession to the parent, reinforcing your noble-stoic character, while sealing their dismissal in the mind of any observer.

I claim that it is trivial, albeit obnoxious, to dismiss most informal utterances in the way you have just done. This is because informal language is complex and enthymeme in the extreme -- we don't tend to articulate every e.g. assumption and premise and contextual relation up front in every utterance. Language is messy because the concepts under discussion are complex and messy, and vibes are powerful tools for wrangling that complexity and getting at meaning. And the majority of paradoxes and contradictions one can identify carry no signal whatsoever. Perfectly reasonable statements can be rife with them.

For example: my interpretation of what the parent wrote was something like "the 'making stupid mistakes' line together with the rest of the blog post signal towards neurodivergence, and someone who is harshly self-critical. so with urgency, I warn the author to be weary of comments on HN, as there is a strong likelihood of being led down an unhelpful path that might aggravate this, particularly given the harsh self-talk and what we know about the subcultures that frequent this place"

Speaking of unarticulated contextual relations, "I often make careless mistakes" is literally in the DSM-V as a diagnostic criterion for ADHD.

[jrowen]

I actually love this comment. I feel seen. Thank you. I am prone to a sort of grandstanding that can elicit such responses, which I believe to actually have a similar philosophical aim as mine (and are perhaps subject to similar dramatic flaws?). I do stand by the sentiment I expressed though.

I do think it does undermine one's point to bemoan the efficacy of HN comments relating to mental health, while making a comment on HN attempting to speak on mental health. Either don't do it, or accept that you believe it can have value.

Your interpretation of their statement is incredibly nuanced. Language matters. Tone matters. Confusion, misinterpretation and miscommunication are the defaults. You certainly understand the importance of endeavoring to express yourself clearly and precisely.

I didn't infer the "beware of harsh self-talk" angle, I was too caught up on their comment actually embodying that approach, which I commented on. Based on the surrounding context I got more of a "HN is dumb because they debate about super nuanced technical stuff" vibe. (Also see sp1nningaway's comment for another completely different interpretation).

I stand by the sentiment that writing a blog post about your mental health and posting it on HN is a totally valid and respectable strategy and I would argue it's had good results even if it's not a "solved problem" and they should still seek other avenues to understanding as well.

P.S. "trivial albeit obnoxious" is an interesting construction I'm still trying to wrap my head around.

[officialchicken]

> I am prone to a sort of grandstanding that can elicit such responses, which I believe to actually

That's HN being HN.

[jrowen]

HN is everything. HN is nothing. HN is this. HN is that. HN is Meta™

edit: how many HN comments talk shit on HN comments? Ask your therapist about self-loathing

[derangedHorse]

His moves weren't slick.

> low-effort counterexamples

If low-effort counterexamples could be made, then the argument wasn't strong to begin with.

> my interpretation of what the parent wrote

Well your interpretation would be considered incorrect by most reasonable people. "HN comments are _NOT_ going to help debugging your mental state" is not a warning, it's an opinionated declaration.

[sp1nningaway]

>> HN comments are _NOT_ going to help debugging your mental state. > Nice paradox you've created there.

This is a "...and don't call me Shirley" level of logical interpretation of what they're saying. They are pointing out that "just try harder" is NOT going to work.

This resonated with me as I spent my whole life telling myself some version of OP's "stop making stupid mistakes" daily, and then castigating myself when I continued to make those mistakes.

Then I got a great therapist who helped me realize that I need to work with what I got and I'm SO much more productive and comfortable with myself now. That doesn't mean never getting better, and like smugglerFlynn I had a strong reaction to OP. He reminds me of myself, and I see him heading down a path that caused me a lot of pain.

[jrowen]

It was a don't call me Shirley thing to say to begin with. I merely added on.

I would dare to say that your interpretation of that vague FUD was largely a projection of your own experience. And I think you sharing that in a constructive and connective way was a lot more clear, empathetic and helpful than the original formulation.

[grvdrm]

Thank you for this reply. I thought the parent comment was blunt, and perhaps honest. But perhaps it could have added some positive and constructive commentary rather than saying what not to do. I hardly think these things are so binary anyways.

[joe_the_user]

I would say "get (professional) help!" is advice that always sounds good and can be good for X percent of people and not so good for the rest.

I am part of project that offers food and resources to unhoused people outside the usual state and regulated private agencies and without conditions. So by that fact I see many people who the mental health system fails to help for one reason or another. I can't tell you what percentage of people that is but I can tell you it's more than zero percent. I have no advice about what works but I can't see what's wrong with creating a structure that could help you.

[magicalist]

Sounds like you help people. Unless the OP edited their post, they said

> close HN, reach out to people, get help

that seems like perfectly compatible advice. I'm not sure why you're inferring a "professional" in there and then quibbling about it.

[grayhatter]

a warning doesn't count as a paradox. Also, a HN comment warning about HN's inability to help with complex issues, when the community can't even agree on domain specific issues (the cited example), is equally not a paradox.

But thankfully this comment goes to prove OP's exact point, HN comments will make wild claims as if they're true, but will be completely devoid of functional logic.

HN is for entertainment purposes only.

[hirvi74]

As someone that is "neurodivergent," I agree. A lot of advice, especially surrounding executive dysfunction, could be boiled down into a single step -- step 1: do not have executive dysfunction.

Now, I am not trying to say there is nothing anyone can do to improve themselves or their situation, but I do find a lot of advice falls short. Common advice is to set reminders, make lists, etc.. However, none of that is helpful when one has to remember to even create/check the reminders, lists, etc.. I notoriously create to-do lists only to never look at them ever again.

Honestly, if I have learned anything in life, it is that I cannot be left to my own devices. I need lots of forced, external structure which makes me rather uncomfortable because I do not want to burden others with the responsibility of managing my disability.

[thewebguyd]

> I need lots of forced, external structure

Me as well, which is a really "fun" time when my specific blend of neurodivergence also causes me to immediately resent said authority and external structure and view it as removing my agency.

What I've learned as I've gotten older is just how much of our struggle comes down to our social model of disability. A lot of these "symptoms" are only disorders because we've built such rigid, uncompromising systems for interacting with and participating in society.

Modern psychology has a tendency to pathologize an individual's ability to conform to this rigidity instead of doing the hard work of promoting the building of flexible environments that are more accommodating of different ways of thinking and working. Instead, we work really hard to force a square peg into the round hole.

Its incredibly isolating, tbh.

[hirvi74]

> view it as removing my agency.

I completely understand you. I hate rigid structure, and tend to rebel in subtle (and not so subtle) ways. However, I cannot function without it. It's like electronics relying on electricity. Too little current, things do not work. Too much current, things explode.

> A lot of these "symptoms" are only disorders because we've built such rigid, uncompromising systems for interacting with and participating in society.

Absolutely. What makes things worse that the pathologies are definitionally tautological. You have a disorder because you exhibit certain behaviors. But you behave in such ways because you have a disorder. That logic has never truly been stratifying to me. I also feel like many pathologies are highly contextual.

I honestly believe Dr. Tomas Szasz was right about some things (and wrong about plenty). I do agree with him that clinical psychology/psychiatry often serve as enforcers of social expectations. It's never the systems that are broken, it's always us that are broken.

> Instead, we work really hard to force a square peg into the round hole.

The worst part is no matter how hard the peg is rammed, it never truly fits.

[astrange]

> Me as well, which is a really "fun" time when my specific blend of neurodivergence also causes me to immediately resent said authority and external structure and view it as removing my agency.

I was never very bad at that, but it can happen in ADHD because you lose interest in everything you're "supposed" to do and get stuck on random other things like commenting here. Especially if the "supposed" tasks are hard or give you anxiety.

So I was quite surprised when going on Intuniv made that basically disappear.

My advice is that there are interventions for things like this, but they're never the obvious ones and you'll be surprised what might work. And it's worth trying meds.

[jrowen]

It's a lot harder to change the shape of the hole. But I do agree that there is too much emphasis on the pathology of it. I think therapy needs a major rebranding and it shouldn't be seen as something that we do to "fix" "broken" people.

It should just be about more deeply understanding ourselves as individuals, and understanding the world around us (particularly other people), so that we may navigate it better.

I saw a video of a comedian (a woman) doing crowd work, and kind of playfully bullying someone (a man), asking them about their therapy. I thought it was funny, but a lot of the comments were along the lines of "that's not cool, how dare you."

But that audience member was at a comedy club, where comics do that kind of thing. Going to therapy isn't about collectively making sure the world babysits and coddles everyones needs. It's about giving you the tools to handle what you can't change.

[hirvi74]

> I think therapy needs a major rebranding and it shouldn't be seen as something that we do to "fix" "broken" people.

I feel like that is more of a cultural impression. I am not certain modern therapy ever truly endorsed such claims. Take the "chemical imbalance" explanation of mental illness. Many people believe and use that explanation, but mainstream psychiatry never supported nor endorsed the hypothesis.

> It should just be about more deeply understanding ourselves as individuals, and understanding the world around us (particularly other people), so that we may navigate it better.

That is also the fundamental issue I have with therapy as a whole. I understand myself very well -- perhaps too well. I also understand the world around me. More importantly, I understand the world and I are very incompatible. When one realizes such, there is little that can be done.

> It's about giving you the tools to handle what you can't change.

People perpetually parrot that statement. However, every time I ask for examples, it seems no one ever has an answer. I do not discount that therapy can sometimes help with conditions that people find themselves in, however, I think therapy is quite ineffective for conditions that people have.

I personally think therapy as an institution has and uncanny amount of resemblances to religious faith and institutions -- predominately in public perception. Much like religion, therapy seems to be most effective for those that you truly believe it will be effective.

[jrowen]

I once asked a long-term partner, point blank, "do you think you're not long for this world?" That person remains one of the deepest connections I've ever had. There is a great amount of variance in human brains and how they react to the time and place they find themselves in, and it is statistically true that a good number are going to have a harder path to walk. Just as with any kind of predisposition to health issues. In that case medication may be the best answer we have at this point.

> People perpetually parrot that statement.

Funny, I thought I just made it up, but it did sound pretty good! I don't know what you mean by examples, but it can be as simple as words that can help you identify your feelings and understand your reactions. If you feel like you're good on that (and I can empathize, I don't have a therapist), there may not be much there for you.

I would guess that you have expectations of the world -- perhaps visions of what it could be -- that are unrealistic, which sets you up to be consistently disappointed.

[ButlerianJihad]

> mainstream psychiatry never supported nor endorsed

Oh, but they most certainly do!

The Chemical Imbalance issue was always the first and last and best explanation from the lips of the psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, researchers, friends and family. All who unanimously urged me and others to take medications that would somehow magically resolve these imbalances and thus put me and my mind on the straight-and-narrow. And that was the be-all, end-all of treatment. Correct the imbalance and inherit the kingdom, unambiguously!

It still is. The myths continue unabated. Don't try and make it past-tense! Nobody can tell them that it’s junk science. It sells pills and it sells hospital admissions and it sells followup visits. How could it possibly be wrong?

Sometimes in my medical questionnaires, I write "lithium deficiency" or "fluoride deficiency" to remind those fucking superstitious zealots about their idiotic pseudoscientific religion that they mindlessly follow. Jesus never wanted this. In fact, Jesus warned about these false prophets and magicians.

It has fueled DSM diagnoses, it has fueled prescriptions and insurance payments, and it has driven hospital-based rehabilitation like no other therapy before or after it.

[jrowen]

While I certainly sympathize with your distaste for certain institutions and traditions within the medical industry, I feel compelled to share that you do seem -- if ever so slightly -- imbalanced.

[weakfish]

I would highly recommend the book "Four Thousand Weeks" by Oliver Burkeman. The main theme of it is that many of our anxieties stem from inability to accept our inherent limitations as humans, and that trying to come up with the perfect productivity system / planning / etc. are all coping mechanisms for that angst that only fuel it over time.

As someone who has struggled greatly with these issues, it was an enlightening read.

To loosely quote the book, shifting your perspective doesn't erase the anxiety, but makes it not quite so unbearable.

[ramon156]

That is re-assuring. Neurodivergence would explain a lot. For the time being, I am still in a state where I cannot get tested (for anyone that has experience with depression, the symptoms go hand in hand with ADD).

I was not planning on opening HN, but it has actually helped me :) I do have to admit I first asked a chat bot what the overall tone was before I opened it up myself.

Thank you very much, I needed to hear this.

[jeremyjh]

Your description does sound like ADHD to me but even a diagnosis and treatment is only one part of what you’ll need. In addition to a therapist I think you really need a mentor to help you navigate the professional side of things. There are lots of shapes that can take but I would definitely prioritize it; if a lot of your stress and unhappiness is due to work there is a limit to what most types of traditional therapy can help with.

[DrewADesign]

As an aside, as of the DSM-V, ADD is no longer used. It’s been combined with ADHD, which has split into 3 subtypes, which are inattentive (basically what used to be ADD,) impulsive (basically what used to be ADHD,) and Combined, which has some combination of traits from both.

I’ve heard, but not confirmed, that depression is a comorbidity among 80% of people with ADHD.

They neuropsychological testing with reaction times and very granular memory tests was quite interesting. If you get the chance to have someone deem it medically necessary, I recommend doing so.

[wafflemaker]

OTOH, reading some wise comments on hn can help you get out of your biases.

It was initially some hn comment that convinced me that ADHD is not lazy people's excuse, but an actual thing (even if overhyped on some hn alternatives -- social media). And that led to a diagnosis after some time.

[nvarsj]

This... I finally changed my life by talking to a psychiatrist after 40+ years of suffering and trying a myriad of things. Mental illnesses are real and need real treatment.

[busymom0]

> talking to a psychiatrist

Would you mind sharing what solutions they recommended for you to try? Also any meds?

[nvarsj]

Yep - meds. Tried a bunch and duloxetine is making a massive difference for me. On them for 4 months so far.

Also picked up therapy yet again but tbh I never found therapy to really solve things - it helps me understand myself better at a logical level but the underlying anxiety / depression (including suicidal ideation) has never really gone away until the meds.

I'd say right now I'm feeling quite content with life, and even find myself feeling genuinely happy throughout the day about things. Which is something I haven't really experienced before. I still have some of those feelings of anxiety crop up but they fade away pretty fast. Depression is completely gone for the most part. I'm still trying to understand this new reality as I'm not used to it at all. But I think (with some caution still!) it's pretty great.

I know anti depressants have a lot of bad press and I’ve even had therapists tell me it’s a crutch. So I’ve generally been hesitant to start them. But they work, not sure why they work, but they do for me at least and I’m glad I stuck with it to find the right one.

[astrange]

> I'm still trying to understand this new reality as I'm not used to it at all.

I'm having a similar issue with ADHD meds, which is that we randomly settled on one that made me feel incredibly "normal" (ie not nerdy) but now my lifestyle totally doesn't match that so I need to redo everything.

Still in progress, I've always had winter depression and likely need to be on something for that as well.

[busymom0]

For the winter depression, have you had your vitamin D levels tested?

[thisislife2]

Do you know what kind of talk therapy was offered to you?

[nvarsj]

Psychotherapy. I've also done a lot of CBT in the past - but I found it didn't really solve my issues, just provides some temporary relief. I personally found going for a long walk to be better than CBT techniques.

[vitro]

Volunteer. Always had good experiences with it and made some nice memories and connections I would not have otherwise.

[ramon156]

This is on my list! I do think that in my current environment I mostly hear what I have done wrong, and helping others would probably give a better outcome.

I know that's a very objective way of looking at it, I mean ofcourse volunteering is a good thing! But I wasn't sure if I was mentally prepared for it. I will definitely reach out to one nearby place that I know of.

[vitro]

Wish you all the best!

[finnthehuman]

I can not agree harder.

A rando that knows a little therapy language and has good intentions is dangerous. Turn and run.

[jrowen]

The best thing you can do for yourself, at all junctures, is develop your own sense of truth. Listen to people, consider what they have to say, but ultimately decide for yourself. Don't place too much faith in any particular source or signifier or heuristic. The rando could have something useful to you, the expert could lead you astray.

[jimnotgym]

The trouble is, in my experience, a lot of professional therapists are some rando who know a little therapy language. I had several therapists before one said, 'you appear to be showing signs of x, you need to talk to y'. They are supposed to 'signpost' you, but they have a short- term commercial incentive not to.

[tibbar]

Yeah, it's really tempting to try to fundamentally change the way you interface with the world but it's rarely very sustainable. I've found that trying to change my social environment, and also build skills to make specific tasks easier, are more effective options.

[switchbak]

"HN comments are _NOT_ going to help debugging your mental state" ... I mean in aggregate, sure. But of course there could be people that are offering useful advice, in a well meaning way - that could actually help OP. You're being really negative here, and I think it's unwarranted.

[xlayn]

get your eyesight check, at some point in life I was having difficulties staying focus and even started having headaches... and I needed prescription glasses...

Also very important, try to sleep the best you can and do exercise... I remember reading here about exercise in some cases exceeding the benefits of ADHD medications...

If you are overdosing things... don't... caffeine can be overdosed and the effects are nasty and lingering... caffeine is meant to be a zero sum game, where it gets you speed in the morning and when it wears off then you go to sleep... if you over dose it then you are making your body over exert and at some point the body will communicate the results via extreme tiredness, bad humor, etc...

Don't be hard on yourself, from everyone we are the most hard on ourselves when we should be the most kind of them all.

[astrange]

> Also very important, try to sleep the best you can and do exercise... I remember reading here about exercise in some cases exceeding the benefits of ADHD medications...

Exercise is very true. I used to take walks but it didn't help; pushing myself at the gym (inc using a trainer) is a lot more effective.

Also, ADHD meds interact with sleep, both making it better and worse. I was on Intuniv 2mg and it absolutely ruined my sleep, but 1mg plus a sleep medication (25mg trazodone) are working very well.

[annzabelle]

Definitely agree on exercise. I'm a temperamentally neurotic person and had ADHD diagnosed as a child. I no longer take ADHD medication, but I run 3-4 days a week and it makes my baseline tension and neuroticism much lower, and improves focus.

[budsniffer952]

What does neurodivergent mean? If there's a spectrum, what is considered normal, and how is that measured?

[wafflemaker]

IANAD, Clinically, the measurement for diagnosis is if symptoms disturb your day to day life. In some countries they need to disturb multiple (1<) spheres of life. (Work, family, health etc.)

Then you'd have people with symptoms, but who's life is not affected by them.

I wonder myself if it's just the first group that is classified as neurodivergent or both.

[iwontberude]

Quick correction that HN are people too my friends

[yoyohello13]

Yeah, HN is a terrible place to come for life advice. It's the blind leading the blind around here. It's even worse, because there are so many confidently wrong (and smart) people who will jump at the chance to write you a novel about how to fix yourself.

This place should only be used for keeping tabs on new tech. For anything else, go touch grass/talk to people IRL.

[smallerize]

Reach out to... people?

[gffrd]

Yes, people. Friends, coworkers, family.

[johngoode]

I think a lot of people with mental health problems could attest that this is not always very effective, most often you exchange the reality you’ve been living in for some kind words and then inevitably the normalisation of your problem.

[gffrd]

Sure. But there's always the chance—and not a small one!—that someone will have experience with mental health issues, know someone who has, of have an idea about how to help.

Gotta start somewhere. And the best thing to do is to try lots of doors.

[grvdrm]

Is help narrowly chemical here or is help in general? Someone else replied suggesting psychiatry - curious if that is what you meant.