[shaism]

It is unfortunate for the employees but it is necessary, and hopefully also a wake up call for other German companies and the government.

It’s time for leaner structures, smaller teams, faster decisions, and shorter development cycles. Volkswagen, like no other company, symbolizes the lethargy of the German economy and business environment.

Hopefully, the seven years with barely any economic growth will end soon.

[notfromhere]

None of that will address the fact that China is intentionally engaging in mercantilism and keeping the value of the yuan low to maintain export volumes. cutting 100k jobs will shave 1k off the production cost of a car, china has like a 6k advantage.

[TacticalCoder]

> Volkswagen, like no other company, symbolizes the lethargy of the German economy and business environment

A car development cycle is/was seven years in Germany. And that was totally fine. When the "Golf 7" comes up, the "Golf 8" doesn't come out only 2 years after.

What happened is the EU (and Germany in particular) left only two development cycles to the biggest industry in Germany (and hence the biggest industry in Europe) to entirely change.

For the EU said: "In 14 years you're forbidden to sell a single brand new ICE car in the EU" (of course they recently changed that tune, but too little, too late, the damage is done).

But that's not all: not happy to drown the german car industry, they decided that the corpse wasn't drowning quickly enough and Germany decided to shut down all their nuclear reactors (I think they recently reversed their stance on that too) and become depending on Russia as a major energy source (which the US warned Europe / Germany to not do).

Of course the shit hit the fan: Russia attacked Ukraine and everything turned to shit.

And now it's estimated German car makers pay their energy price 7x more than was chinese car makers pay their energy.

So, no, it's not all "the lethargy of German economy and business". Germany was (and to some extent still is) producing incredibly fine driving machines: not just VW but Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes.

And those cars did what was asked of cars: drive very finely.

It's eurocrats/bureaucrats and german politicians who killed the german car industry.

P.S: I've got nothing against EVs... But don't be an ideological idiot about it: don't kill your main industry while handing the keys of the kingdown to China. The shift was way too quick. The EU should have been way more cautious and shouldn't have stupidly closed so many nuclear plants (to moreover start burning more coal again).

[throwaway270925]

> What happened is the EU (and Germany in particular) left only two development cycles to the biggest industry in Germany (and hence the biggest industry in Europe) to entirely change.

Thats of course complete BS, the change to EVs (and more economical ICEs and Hybrids in between) could be seen decades away! And VW knew it, they just chose to ignore it and continue down the easy (lazy) path.

There is nobody to blame other than VW management, the Piechs and Porsches in particular.

[rjsw]

The EU didn't close any nuclear plants, that was just Germany.

[mk89]

OP said "Germany decided".

EU did the Green Deal, though, which is way worse than shutting down a few nuclear reactors that after all didn't produce that much energy anymore and were anyways planned to be shut down.

[wolvoleo]

The green deal is needed to make sure we can still live in this world 50 years from now.

We're already feeling the effects of climate change pretty heavily and it's only just starting. If anything the deal was too little too late.

[mk89]

The Green Deal solves nothing.

We pollute right outside our block, give credits to companies claiming to be "green" so that we can sell hardware here that is certified, so that we can go to sleep a bit happier as human beings, because we believe we're doing the right thing.

In all this, they make tons of money, make our economy worse than it ever was with no end game.

We're measuring with the wrong targets.

[petre]

You drive your Audi, BMW, Porsche. Mercedes. I'm gonna drive a Toyota or a Honda since I don't like costly repairs, subscription chair heaters or getting screwed over.

[jedmeyers]

You are in for a surprise if you think latest generation Toyotas or Hondas will be less costly to repair. Just look at the recent debacle with the V35A-FTS.

[wolvoleo]

For Europe to meet its climate goals that was necessary. And BYD seems to have no issues shifting. Why should VW?

Though I do see another option emerging: people just not buying cars at all. More and more friends are relying on public transit alone. That's an even better option for the environment and climate of course.

For the economy it's not so good but it'll have to cope. If people don't buy cars it means they'll have lots more money to spend on other things anyway.

[alephnerd]

> Audi, Porsche

Both are part of VW Group and have seen marketshare fall as well due to tariffs as well as China cutting down on foreign luxury brands in favor of domestic ones.

Barely 5 years ago a black Audi A8 was the go-to VIP car in China.

> BMW and Mercedes (Daimler Grouo)

They will survive, but they also made sure to diversify beyond China and the US, which VW never did which is why they are so screwed.

> I've got nothing against EVs... But don't be an ideological idiot about it: don't kill your main industry while handing the keys of the kingdown to China. The shift was way too quick...

Also

1. Don't have half of your production depend on the mercy of two SOEs (FAW and SAIC) who are trying to build indigenous competitors.

2. Diversify markets - America and China don't want to buy "Made in Europe" cars anymore. Mercedes and BMW made sure they were status symbols in multiple markets the same way VW's Audi and Porsche never could.

3. Don't let other countries have veto power within your largest conglomerates - Qatar has veto power and 17% of all voting shares in Volkswagen Group

[mk89]

EU didn't close nuclear plants, not sure what you're talking about.

This is a choice some countries did in the past due to Chernobyl and Fukushima.

The "fatality" was performed successfully by the Greens.

[fnordian_slip]

Why does this obvious falsehood get repeated so much on hn Everyone can look up what the CDU did, it's not like they did it in secret.

It's bad enough that nuclear proponents ignore the massive cost of nuclear compared to renewables once you factor in building costs, insurance and storage imho. But then to pretend like the conservatives didn't have a choice but to bungle the nuclear exit really is too much.

The CDU never listened to the greens when it came to not killing the solar industry and serving it to China on a golden platter. Or not killing our rail infrastructure by continually delaying maintenance so that we would have to do much more costly repairs later.

But in this instance, they do, and do it in a way that is a gift to the energy companies, and instead of noticing the obvious corruption at play, people still blame the greens.

[mk89]

Sure, SPD didn't have anything to do with it. Schröder and the Greens didn't have anything to do with it at all.

The Green party itself was literally born out of a protest against nuclear reactors in the 70's (Whyl).

CDU tried to slow down the phase out, but when Fukishima happened Merkel thought about staying in power rather than doing the right thing (= not shutting down the power plants).

I don't care about CDU, which as usual never misses a chance to disappoint, but not saying that the phase out was planned and executed by the Greens (and obviously SPD) is just factually wrong, because they initiated it all and implemented it. It wasn't just a draft, "let's see if it gets amended, etc..".

EDIT: I was talking just purely about energy and such reforms. The last 30 years have been ... to say the least... "weird" and short term.

Disabling a technology is a huge mistake, no matter what. No country did it the way it was done in Germany.

[OKRainbowKid]

Yeah it's crazy, in every post about Germany inevitably the nuclear phase out will get brought up and the comments/discussions always seem like a shit show of misinformation to me. And it's always how nuclear is being phased out in favor of coal and gas and that's why energy is expensive, industry is dying, and the Greens and or EU are to blame for all of it. It's tiring, really, and I have the impression that these posters are not acting in good faith, but posting to reproduce a narrative.

[fnordian_slip]

As we are supposed to strongman other commenters arguments here, I'd say they are not posting to produce a narrative, but rather that they have allowed themselves to believe that they are the "obviously right", and everyone who believes otherwise is driven to do so by ideology instead of logic.

By painting the opposition to nuclear energy as emotionally driven, they can assure themselves that their position is rational, and this allows them to subconsciously ignore the evidence against it.

[OKRainbowKid]

Thank you, and I agree. Your phrasing more accurately reflects what I meant to say.

[121789]

your misrepresentation of the timeline makes your comment meaningless. Germany has been winding down nuclear reactors for 20 years.

the only actual story here is that the market trend (both tesla in the US and all chinese EVs) pointed towards EVs being the future and German/Japanese brands have not been willing to give up their cash cows to EVs. The brand value will remain (e.g. germany MIGHT be ok), but the value and reliability differentiators will disappear.

[lifestyleguru]

> Of course the shit hit the fan: Russia attacked Ukraine and everything turned to shit.

When Russia attacked Ukraine in 2014 absolutely nothing happened. Covid showed that Europe is eating boogers with their pants down, so both Trump and Putin decided to go on the rampage.