[RiverCrochet]

From the article:

"Elop oversaw the 2011 launch of a Linux-based smartphone, the Nokia N9. The N9 ran on a distribution of Linux called MeeGo. Reviewers at the time praised the new smartphone direction the Finnish phone maker had taken. 'Possibly the most beautiful phone ever made,' wrote one reviewer about the N9 for Engadget.

But the N9’s accolades did not ultimately carry the day. Nokia announced its Lumia line of phones the same year—a direct pivot away from MeeGo toward the Windows Phone. It would be the last major strategic turn Nokia would take as a cellphone manufacturer. From this point forward, a succession of C-suite decisions all but sealed the fate of Nokia’s iconic line of phones."

We were so close to having literal plain Linux phones. Sad to me. I wonder where this could have gone without Microsoft.

[nextos]

Discussed in HN many times, but worth restating once more. The N9 was fantastic. A joy to use, and in many ways the best design, both hardware and software, I've ever handled. Everything had been designed with care and some UI elements remain unmatched.

I think I was one of the first developers that got an N770 engineering sample (the first product in the N770-N9 saga) and it was really clear that they were onto something. Sadly, internal politics won over company and consumer interests. It took them extremely long to let this be a phone, not just an "Internet tablet". It was bizarre.

The same team is now behind Jolla/Sailfish. It's pretty remarkable how far they've got, but it's obviously not a perfect product given how small they are compared to the other mobile juggernauts. However, it's usable as a daily driver and, with a critical developer mass, it could get somewhere. There are already quite a few indie apps.

Crucially, I think it's the only platform that has the potential to set you truly free. GrapheneOS is the other alternative I can also endorse and tolerate, but it has a different set of compromises, and it's a bit fragile to Google pulling the plug. But it's great in its own ways.

[cdud3]

To add to that: Elop announced the end of N9 weeks before it's release and more then a year before the first Lumina was available. Dead on arrival not even shipped in major markets. Yet the N9 was years ahead any competition of that time.

[nextos]

Exactly, and it sold really well despite that.

It was Kafkaesque, discontinuing a product before release.

[Gibbon1]

Elop knew what his job was. Sell Nokia to Microsoft.

[nextos]

And he effectively killed the last EU platform. Will we ever see another one?

I miss these simpler times when devices were made to serve users, and not the other way round.

[mjg59]

The N9 shipped when it did because the teams working on the successor project had been pulled back to support the N9, and Elop arrived to find a company betting its future on a new platform that had almost no existing third party support and which wouldn't have any follow-up hardware for another 2 years. Google has no incentive to work with Nokia rather than the existing vendors who'd staked themselves to Android, the other competing platforms at the time were basically all tied to a single vendor, but Microsoft wanted a recognisable brand name and would throw engineering resources at supporting them. With hindsight it obviously didn't work, but Meego as a competitive platform was already dead even without heading in the Microsoft direction.

It's funny that these conversations always focus on Elop and not all the decisions already made by the time he showed up. Maemo bring rebased on Qt at the insistence of the Series 60 team so there could be a transition story from S60 to Linux delayed software development significantly, and the merge with Moblin was ultimately entirely unnecessary churn.

It's a convenient story to blame Nokia's failure on Elop and Microsoft, but in the timeline where that transition didn't happen we'd still look back at the N9 as the last gasp of a giant that failed to adapt to the changing market fast enough. The N9 came out almost 4 years after the iPhone - the Pre had landed two years earlier and even so had failed to gain sufficient market support to survive, and HP killed WebOS a few months after the N9 shipped. In 2011 momentum was entirely with iOS and Android. If the N9 had shipped in 2009 they might have had a chance. Instead, the N900 was shipped in limited company quantities with woefully uncompetitive hardware.

It's 2011. Faced with an ecosystem that has changed massively in the past 4 years that's destroyed your high end market and is threatening your medium and low end market, and given the choice between an (absolutely beautiful!) in-house platform with no killer apps and two years before you can ship a successor, and the opportunity to tie up with a dominant OS vendor who'll prioritise your brand and provide engineering support and make it possible to churn out several new high end devices in that two year timeframe, which seems like the better choice?

[uecker]

The better choice would have been to double down on N9 and successors. This was my opinion at that time and still is. You may be right about all the internal problems that delayed thing, but the Windows Phone decision was bad and poorly executed.

[routamind]

Nokia Mobile Phones, with all its divisions, was a bloated organization with so much organizational friction that it created enough fire to burn any "platform" and its neighbor too. Proven by Jolla, which with just 50–100 people created so much with a fraction of the headcount that MeeGo had.

Nokia's thinking of the time was to see each phone as a product. The big reset button pressed after release, separating each device from the previous one. Just look at the Maemo & MeeGo story: N770, N800, N900, N9. Basically, top management and did not understand the market early enough and the friction did the rest: it was phones with software, not software for phones. The same misunderstanding some of the media business went through a few years later; people were not buying paper, but news.

[theshrike79]

There was an internal mandate that MeeGo couldn't release any features before the Symbian side had them too. 100% internal politics.

And as anyone who has worked with Symbian knows, it was a gigantic pile of shit to work with and work on. Everything was massively complex and slow.

So the Linux team had to wait on releases. slowing them down.

[hedgehog]

It wouldn't necessarily have been better, a major reason the Windows phone stuff failed is it didn't have market share to justify app development. Android barely made it work as a well-funded #2. Palm WebOS, MeeGo, there were various efforts that were better than Android and even iOS in a lot of ways but app availability seems to have been the biggest factor in the lack of platform diversity.

Edit: And consistent with sibling comment Microsoft was even paying companies to build apps for their platform, and it _still_ wasn't enough.

[xorcist]

There was also Tizen, FirefoxOS and a whole slew of others. It was a remarkable time.

But it is true that the app-based future, that didn't exist yet, probably came with market dynamics that limits the number of platforms to two or three. It just wasn't clear which those were at the time.

What a vanilla Linux-based platform, and Meego, Maemo, Moblin and Mer were just iterations of the same thing, would have had going for it was that it could have had much better long time support and not just for hardware for software. Linux famously do not break userspace, and can regularly run 30 year old applications. For a phone you would be surprised if a 3 year old app worked.

Microsoft did this so much worse than both Apple or Android, even if they all suffer from it. Every release of the operating system came not just with new design language, never earth-shattering but often interesting, but new GUI toolkits and application packaging. Just a recompile of your application often wasn't enough, you were expected to rewrite your application to fit in with the new. They really shot themselves in the foot with that, and they did it over and over again despite never having leading market share and everbody seeing where things were heading. It was (and perhaps still is) probably the only way they could operate as a company.

The vanilla Linux-based platforms mentioned above had their own problems which should be obvious from the naming scheme alone, which would have compounded had their marketshare grown bigger. It was a forkfest. But that's the issue with corporate open source, there is rightfully an inherent skepticism where a single company dominates what is an open source project. This is also why Linus never took a job with the big Linux providers. It wasn't for a lack of opportunitites, but he knew that had he worked for Red Hat, people would always suspect even technical decisions to be made for the benefit of his employer. The most successful open source projects are vendor neutral. That is not in telecom companies culture, they had a very hard time understanding that and tend to form alliances instead. Not the same thing.

[hedgehog]

Once native apps became important Microsoft didn't have a chance, the basis for Apple's success was in place back in 2003-2005. Apple had a big head start on what is now the standard phone template (always-on cell data, capacitive touch, etc), and based on the experience and success of the iTunes / iPod platform they found leverage to negotiate a unique deal where they controlled OS updates and the app store (instead of the carriers). They also had a lot of experience with OpenGL composited UI from OS X which translated to a (relatively) good GLES implementation on iPhone even though they didn't originally have any kind of public SDK. Very useful for games. Now I think there are some groups that are hoping LLM-based agents will upset the dominance of the app store model... I'm skeptical but we'll see.

[crooked-v]

I still fondly remember my Palm Pre. It felt like something with the potential for as much UX gloss and functionality as the iPhone but much easier to make small apps for.

[storus]

Windows Phone aesthetics was repulsive to most people at that time; we finally got TrueColor 4k screens and all MS could do was to use 10 colors everywhere and start the flat fad that destroyed UX on most systems. What a waste.

[hedgehog]

I don't think that's quite accurate, the screens of the time were more like 480px wide and I don't think most people had a strong aesthetic opinion. Just look at Android. The major problem is that whatever app you cared about, whether it was your bank, Facebook, sport news, or Uber, or Google Maps, or whatever, it was on iOS and maybe Android. So at least in rich countries the decision tree was: buy iOS if you can afford it, buy Android if you can't. Apple basically got extremely lucky that the native app thing took off instead of their original vision of everything via the browser.

[calgoo]

I loved the tiled Windows phone ui, felt years ahead of the already aging android look and the god awful iOS look. I use android and iOS daily, and luckily I have been able to add a tiled launcher, with live tiles in android.

Also, had ms continued production and not burned goodwill at each turn, as well as skipped the crapshow that was windows 8, we could at least had had 3 providers instead of two.

[pzo]

I think they would still fail with MeeGo, same like Blackberry failed even though they had really good OS. I remember was going to their conference in amsterdam and were giving their new Blackberry Tablet for free to attract developers to make any app.

If Nokia and Blackberry team up they maybe would succeed. Nokia Mobile still could be around if instead choosing Windows Phone would release Android phone back then.

[calgoo]

The blackberry tablet was amazing at the time, especially if you had a blackberry phone as well. The issue was App development was a pain in a rear if i remember correctly, where it felt like you had to reinvent the wheel for everything you needed to do.

[rasjani]

MeeGo was actually just a branding of failed project with Intel's Moblin. What nokia shipped was just "compatible with Meego". One key differences was that MeeGo spec was based on rpm packaging while Nokia used deb's. I dont think this played well either in adoption of new "burning platform" :)

[wmf]

BlackBerry didn't have a really good OS until 2011 or later which was too late.

[seba_dos1]

> We were so close to having literal plain Linux phones.

We had that and we still do. Back in 2008 I was wondering whether I should spend my first-earned money on the first Android phone (HTC Dream, aka T1) or a "plain Linux phone" (Neo Freerunner) and I've chosen the latter. Ultimately it was a good choice, as Android quickly turned out to be not what I wanted and only got worse over time, while the other path had me eventually go through Nokia N900 and Librem 5, and both of them worked well as mobile phones and pocket-sized computers. They feel like actual smartphones compared to Android and iOS which feel more like appliances that have largely replaced the so called feature-phones of the past.

That said, Nokia N9 was already strafing away from that path, with its Aegis framework that attempted to lock the device down in hopes to, basically, enforce a form of DRM. It turned out not to be very effective, but it would undoubtedly have kept being improved in later iterations, slowly eroding that unrestricted agency of the user that the N900 was famous for.

[roundabout-host]

Also, I do not see any confirmation of the N9 running standard GNU/Linux apps like the N900. But if the N900 continued, it would have been entirely different.

[seba_dos1]

N9's Harmattan still used a regular X11 environment on a Debian-based system, just like N900's Fremantle (though it was supposed to be a stop-gap as MeeGo proper wasn't Debian-based anymore). However, aside of Aegis being a PITA, its portrait form-factor with a capacitive touchscreen and lack of physical keyboard simply wasn't providing a comfortable experience with "standard GNU/Linux apps" that N900 did.

[eddythompson80]

> We were so close to having literal plain Linux phones.

IIRC, the dominant position back then was "Android is Linux". Shuttleworth closed his famous #1 bug on Canonical that was their mission in 2013 because now Android/Linux is more popular than Windows and the future is mobile[1]. Also Google still had a lot of good will in the OSS/Linux community back then so most "Mobile Linux" attempts were met with "Just use Android"

[1] https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/05/mark-shuttleworth-marks-...

[jauntywundrkind]

Android may be a Linux but it (if we are feeling generous) sure as heck is not the user's. It's someone else's Linux that they let us run some non-Linux apps in in extremely tight sandboxes.

[roundabout-host]

From the user's perspective, it is not Unix-like, even though it contains Linux. FreeBSD is more similar to GNU/Linux than Android is.

[PopePompus]

I loved Nokia's Linux phones, and bought several of them. I drove to New York (from Boston) twice to get an N900 as early as possible. But I wonder what they would have had to do to make that line of phones a mass-market success. Users of the N900 had root privilege. Can you imagine a support nightmare that would have been for T-Mobile et al.? To sell Linux phones to the general public, I think they would have had to lock down the OS to the point that it resembled what Android is today.

[RiverCrochet]

Most of the Windows CE phones of that era (pre-Windows Phone 7) were also basically "rooted" - i.e. you could install any .CAB and there was nothing stopping you. But Linux is a real operating system and Windows CE is basically on the same level as Windows 95 from an architecture standpoint.

A friend of mine worked at a cell phone repair shop and it was fairly common for someone to bring in their bulky keyboard-slideout HTC PDA that had frozen and typically the only recourse was a "hard reset" - reverting the phone to factory settings and removing all stored data (which was in the MB those days). Of course WinMo on most PDAs of the time was quite capable of keeling over all by itself without the aid of third-party programs, so the user couldn't always be blamed.

[m4rtink]

Got forbid the user of a device they have bought is in control!

That woul be the end of the world, you could not push downgrades, like Samsung remotely disabling bootloader unlock or Bamboolab forcing all your 3D models through their cloud service.

The horror! They could even remove all your unskippable adds and disable all the spying, gross!

[afavour]

> We were so close to having literal plain Linux phones. Sad to me. I wonder where this could have gone without Microsoft.

Sadly, I strong suspect it would have gone nowhere. Apps became the name of the game and iOS and Android built up strong app libraries quickly. If Microsoft failed to compete I don't think a Nokia Linux phone would have stood a chance at all. Maybe if it added Android compatibility but that would be as much of an admission of failure as anything.

[jcsager]

Assuming that a plain Linux phone had succeeded early on, once banks, retailers and media companies refused to provide apps because of security concerns, then either the phone would die in the marketplace or it would have developed security solutions similar to those provided by iOS and Android today and no longer be a 'plain Linux phone'.

[roundabout-host]

Or maybe banks would have provided WWW-based alternatives.

[msh]

Reviewers were nice to it because they knew it was DOA.

It did have some good sides but it was in most ways worse than comparable iPhones and androids.

[Sharlin]

It was absolutely not. It easily rivaled (and in many ways surpassed) the contemporary iPhones and was so far ahead of Androids it wasn’t even funny. It was such a fascinating combination of ahead-of-its-time touch UI/UX and power user friendliness.

[lifestyleguru]

Every time a Linux sprouts out somewhere, Microsoft flamethrower comes over. Consumer market, academic environment, public office. I heard that Bill will cure malaria and covid just anytime now, the day after universal healthcare will be introduced in US.

[ahartmetz]

I think that's over now, Microsoft is focusing on cloud and AI and doesn't particularly care which OS you run as long as they somehow make money. Plenty of reasons left to dislike and distrust them, though (cf. "cloud and AI").

[lifestyleguru]

It's over only because average user doesn't have laptop or PC anymore, interestingly there is no Microsoft smartphone OS.

[B1FF_PSUVM]

Not far. Not even MS had the clout to impose a third alternative in phones, and it was needed.

And WindowsPhone was actually a good design for user interaction, with the exception of some underlying clunkiness of settings.

[WhyNotHugo]

We had Linux phones. I learnt Python+Qt coding on a Nokia N900 (the N9's predecessor). I must emphasise on the "coding on" part. I would ssh into the phone and use it as a regular Linux box.

Something which the article omits is that Nokia changed it CEO to an ex-boardmember of MSFT. Comments in Slashdot that week were "this guy's gonna tank Nokia, kill their Linux research and sell out to MS". They were 100% accurate.

Make no mistake, Nokia didn't make "a mistake" or a simple bad call. Someone was placed at the top to sabotage and destroy it.