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by phyzome 17 days ago
Correction: The US still has not abolished slavery.

It is still legal in the case of prisoners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

3 comments

yes! which is _the_ driving factor behind the US prison system with its private prison labor facilities.

there is zero financial motivation for the state for prevention or rehab or any other activities to reduce imprisonment rates

did I mention disenfranchisement of the imprisoned?

Related: https://newjimcrow.com/about/excerpt-from-the-introduction

"Jarvious Cotton cannot vote. Like his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and great-great-grandfather, he has been denied the right to participate in our electoral democracy"

Are you suggesting that the state turns a net profit on prisoners, making more from their labor than the full cost of their incarceration?

That seems…unlikely.

Not the state but the companies that run the prisons and those that contract the workers to work at an extremely low wage.
What’s the financial motivation for the state then?
For the state itself? None.

For state employees (i.e. representatives, judges, etc.)? Some get kickbacks.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

See: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dhs-contractors-told-wh...

Alas, the "kids for cash" scandal was such a big news event that it dominates the results for any search you'd do on the subject of private prison corruption, but it's hardly the only example.

It's possible that you're genuine in your confusion here; it is, however very hard for me to believe that there are people who genuinely don't understand that when the state spends money it -goes somewhere-.
The state as a whole does not have a financial motivation.

The interests of the criminal justice system on the other hand is heavily financially benefited from the current state of affairs. More incarcerations means more judges, more lawyers, more job security.

Moves to correct this are labeled as “soft of crime” and surely my opponent Congresswoman Y isn’t pro crime?

I wasn't claiming there was a financial motivation one way or the other simply stating the actors who do turn a profit with regards to the US prison system.

The explosion of incarceration and the private prisons resulting from that largely come from "the war on drugs". The book The New Jim Crow is pretty good if you're interested in the topic.

Irrelevant. There doesn't need to be any.

"What's the financial motivation for the state" is way too blinkered and makes at least 2 different false assumptions. There are other motivations besides financial, and it doesn't have to be the state's own motivation for the state to end up doing something.

Countless government policies and programs exist which give no legitimate benefit to the state or the people, no legitimate motivation, financial or otherwise, yet they exist anyway because they do benefit and motivate someone, financially or otherwise, who has some mechanism of influence to cause it to happen.

This is almost like asking "Why would anyone do something bad?" Gosh golly why indeed? 517,000 reasons and 124 new ones every day.

Relevant in that the directly upthread poster argued there was “zero financial motivation for the state for prevention or rehab or any other activities to reduce imprisonment rates”, which I claim is incorrect.
to lose less money on the prisoners?

i.e. its not a good motivation to increase the number of prisoners (even if one looses less money per prisoner, more prisoners will mean more loss), but it does motivate investigating ways on how one can minimize the loss on individual prisoners.

in many cases the motivation is not financial, it's racial; modern-day Jim Crow
I get how you could read it that way, and of course the state as the thing that is collecting taxes and paying whatever does not profit.

and the state as all citizens, including those affected by gang and drug related violence also would benefit from dong things differently.

it's those who benefit off the current prison labor system who lobby to keep it running, and they make it seem "natural" and "without alternatives"...

and "the state" (as the tax collecting entity) pays for the prisons and the inmates while the labor "providing" companies benefit off the labor.

it's a very very clever system.

enslavement without being called such.

and I agree, no, "the state" (as the totality of citizens) doesn't benefit.

only "the state" as the entity that's controlled by lobbyists and _pretends_ being by the people, for the people, that has no motivation to change this.

I suppose using this logic, murder is legal, because of self defense. Theft is legal because of tax laws.

Prisoners aren't 'slaves'. They are being punished for crimes they committed. Very dofferent than being born into it and bought/sold to the highest bidder.

Read the Constitution. The 13th amendment that “abolished” slavery also explicitly reserved the right for the government to keep prisoners as slaves:

AMENDMENT XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

> They are being punished for crimes they committed

The punishment is being locked up in a cell. Being forced to work on top of that is the slavery.

> Being forced to work on top of that is the slavery.

Why is it not part of the punishment?

I think it is dependent upon interpretation. Otherwise arresting and locking up can be interpreted as kidnapping and so on.

I do agree that they should be fairly compensated though.

> Why is it not part of the punishment?

Indeed it is part of the punishment. As an earlier comment in this thread points out from the 13th amendment:

> "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime" (emphasis added by me)

> I do agree that they should be fairly compensated though.

They're not. That's why it's slavery. And slavery of prisoners is permitted by the Constitution, which is the main point here.

If someone is abducted against their will and forced to do work without (fair) compensation and without being allowed to exercise their human rights, is that person not a slave because they were neither born into it nor bought or sold?
"Abduction against their will" is something that happens when a person is arrested. If you are done for crime I don't think freedoms apply to you anymore.
Self denese isn't murder. It's killing but not murder. And yes, there are forms of killing that are legal and not murder.

And yes indeed you are correct that the sate does commit theft and declare it legal for itself.

Prisoners that are made to perform any useful work that anyone else benefits from are slaves, not merely prisoners.

If you want to invoke the word "logic" you should actually employ it.

I did not say that all prisoners are slaves. I said that it would be legal to enslave them.
Prisoners are not slaves, because they are not the property of the prison or any other entity. It's called involuntary servitude. I'm sure the people affected do not care about the distinction, but words matter.

It's also trivially easy to not end up in involuntary servitude.

> It's also trivially easy to not end up in involuntary servitude.

Look, you're not entirely wrong. But you're not entirely right, either.

In some states, the prisons are privately run and the prison labour is part of the profit motive. They have no incentive to rehabilitate and the states with these "programs" have some of the highest recidivism rates in the USA.

That also ignores the fact that some people are born into situations that make it far harder to live a "legit" life than others, and I'm not even talking about historical racism as part of that equation (which certainly does contribute).

I'm also NOT saying that prisoners shouldn't be made to work, but it should be outside of a system designed to exploit them.

> It's also trivially easy to not end up in involuntary servitude.

Stupid people always say nonsense like this as if no person in prison is innocent.

It's also black and white thinking that carries an ego-filled, nuance-lacking, disregard for the myriad of circumstances that underpin human behavior.
Read more about it in Herbert Marcuse: One-Dimensional Man
Stupid people also assume there are not exceptions to every rule. But you can't build your systems (or your arguments) around edge cases, because that would be ignoring the vast majority of use cases.
Another stupid comment. What do you think about the death penalty?

If you happen to be the one dying for no reason would you consider that just a trivial unfortunate edge case?

Educate yourself:

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/policy/innocence

Every day I am happy many here are techies and not politicians.

You should read The New Jim Crow
I did not say that prisoners are slaves. I said that it is legal to enslave them.