Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by j-conn 20 days ago
Totally misleading. Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor.

Overly aggressive resuscitation attempts are definitely a problem but context matters

6 comments

> Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor.

You have to provide a denominator to make this statement. 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10%, and discharge from the hospital (let alone functional status) is even lower.

CPR is thus a great example of the OP's thesis that doctors refuse certain things based on their poor efficacy.

https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/articles/cpr...

> 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10%

Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed?

It is a bit like complaining that jumping out of a burning airplane with a parachute is dangerous. Yes, it is. But jumping out of a parachute, or burning inside, is even more dangerous.

> Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed?

Great question, but it's obviously not possible to answer.

I suspect the survival rate won't be 0, and maybe won't even be less than 10%.

The point of this whole subtree is that there are interventions that people wouldn't want for themselves because the expected outcome is very poor.

Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving:

>Survival chances decrease by 10% for every minute that immediate CPR and use of an AED is delayed.

> Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving:

Oh my goodness, did YOU read anything on the page? Here's a literal quote with a link to a study you could have followed if you weren't just here for outrage points:

"For the past 20 years, the survival rate for cardiac arrest has hovered around 10 percent for out-of-hospital incidences and 21 percent for in-hospital events, yet research shows that high-quality CPR has a significant impact on survival outcomes, whether inside or outside the hospital."

link: https://mycares.net/sitepages/uploads/2026/2025_flipbook/ind...

100%. CPR initiated within 2 minutes of cardiac arrest increases survival rate by 81%. The fact that CPR is rarely initiated so quickly (and thus survival rates are extremely low), says nothing about the efficacy of CPR. In the best cases where CPR is initiated < 2 mins, and AED shock within < 5mins survival rate can be as high as 50%.

https://newsroom.heart.org/news/bystander-cpr-up-to-10-minut...

I struggle square those numbers with the ones below, showing 11% survival (22% making it to hospital alive).

I can’t find a source for it, but I’m told that survival after an arrest in hospital is actually lower, due to the co-morbidities that patients have.

https://www.resus.org.nz/assets/OHCA_All_NZ_Feb23.pdf

Cardiac arrest is an incredibly heterogenous condition. A witnessed VF arrest in a young person with an inherited electrical type heart condition who gets compressions and a shock on a gym basketball court can wake up and walk away normal. A 98 year old who codes from sepsis or a fentanyl OD who is profoundly hypoxic or acidemic who gets enough Narcan and CPR to start having a heartbeat again after 15 minutes is very different. The statistics reflect this but you can’t generalize from the general to the specific in this case.
A big increase in a small number can still be a small number.
"Early" is load-bearing. Even brief delays, just mere minutes, significantly decrease survival or positive outcomes.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCOUTCOMES.123.010...

It's important to get people to realize the benefits of early CPR and more people should be trained on how to do it, or else it won't be prompt and the outcomes will be worse. That's what the Red Cross and AHA promulgate to the public, in so many words.

I've never heard the term "load-bearing" used outside of the civil engineering world until the more recent versions of Claude suddenly decided everything was "load-bearing".

Did you internalize Claude terminology, use Claude to write/translate your post, or lead Claude into temptation by being the OG?

Asking out of genuine curiosity and not at all trying to throw shade.

"Load bearing beliefs" is a thing in the podcast/YouTube world at a minimum. Perhaps you're not as online as some other folks (probably a good thing!).
I watch a lot of tech adjacent YT videos mostly. I really haven't heard this being used. So weird the different bubbles we all live in and just don't realize. Is the usage recent or historic? What contexts is it used in? Is it common in American English, British English, or one of the several other groupings?
Sounds like it grew out of the rationalist community (eww), and got picked up by various podcasters as it became a phase du jour.

See https://www.yuzeh.com/etc/2021-01-24-beliefs-as-structures - folks have been using it for a while now.

Now everyone is saying "hits different", and that one drives me crazy. Old man problems.

I have heard it in the way that Claude uses it going way back. Since I have to use Anthropic models for work, and they use that term prodigiously, it's been added to the list of "perfectly fine phrases that have been ruined" to me. It's really frustrating too because I don't know what other phrase I would use.
You could use the word "important"
I don't suppose you recall where you picked it up? I really am curious on this, regardless what all the downvoters happen to think. The linguistics that surface in the training mixed with the system prompts is really interesting. Annoying as well, but still interesting.
Technically not civil engineering but similarly enough in the home-reno space. You can knock down a retaining wall relatively willy-nilly but a load-bearing wall needs a replacement thought out ahead of time.

So extended to concepts it always seemed a natural fit. I think where I picked it up in this regard was when used to describe Religion, in that you don't necessarily need the religions we have to "fill the god hole" but you need something of similar fortitude in order to maintain balance. The idea is that you can't just remove religion and then not replace it because it bears so much weight.

Yeah the stupid machine could have picked "let us circle back" or something but nope.
"does some heavy lifting"
No. I do use the term.
I'm curious where you picked it up originally. I've been mystified why Claude started using it so much.
I’ve been using it in the tech space for many years now, no idea where I picked it up. Also this is the first I’ve heard Claude is using it!
It's funny you're being grumped at about it, but yeah "load-bearing" outside of civil eng is my "nails on a chalkboard" slop signal. Well, one of many.
Note how the data gets contaminated here.

CPR is simply buying time, at best it can delay death in the hope the doctors can do something about whatever caused the heart to quit. Usually they can't.

AED is different. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe the shocker does not start your heart and it is never used on a stopped heart. Shocking is about the heart beating ineffectively. It has a chance of actually treating the problem, not merely buying time. If the heart is stopped the AED just sits there and says continue CPR. And people blame it for being defective.

How has CPR (or CPR data) changed since 2011? What type of medicine do you practice?
My only point was that this article shouldn’t be considered authoritative, wanted to put it in perspective for someone surfing hn and just reading the comments

The person closest to me was saved by CPR after cardiac arrest (and cooling at the hospital), with no neurological deficits

What are the statistics for quality of life after CPR even if it saves the patients life? I think this is more what the article is about.