[mstaoru]

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here. This is not what I really think but it's a point that has merit.

Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy (by GDP), while simultaneously paying cushy pensions to a growing pool of retirees, it must either very quickly build talent (but it has a very limited pool due to demographic), or accept high levels of immigration. The US is in better position because, let's face it, English is the widest spoken language professionally. If Germany's pitch is just "please come here to work for less money, speak German day #1, and enjoy batshit crazy bureaucracy with years to process residency", it's just not going to work. Something has to give.

[customguy]

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone -- which is what I'm talking about -- that just makes it worse.

> Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy

Countries don't have aims or ambitions, people in them do. If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine. You don't make friends by blackmail, but by being friendly.

[mft_]

You seem to be completely missing (or avoiding?) the point.

It is widely recognised that Germany is one of the most at-risk countries in the world regarding its aging population, low birth-rate, and need for skilled workers for its economy.

If one performs a SWOT analysis of Germany from the perspective of a potential skilled immigrant, alongside the undoubted strengths, there are relative weaknesses - e.g. high taxes, awful bureaucracy (especially for outsiders and entrepreneurs), low levels of digitalisation, failing public infrastructure, and a language barrier vs. the otherwise-English-speaking professional world.

A rational response to this would be to address each weakness at all levels, from government to culture to individuals, because Germany is in competition with many other countries for the same skilled workers.

In short, put a process in place to make Germany the most skilled-immigrant-friendly country in world. And a piece of this process would be to be less intransigent around language - be much more accepting of people who want to settle in Germany and contribute positively to its future but don't want to spend large amounts of time learning a difficult new language which is irrelevant almost anywhere else.

> If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accommodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine.

This is a very odd position: you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. (If Germany ceases to exist as a meaningful country in a few generations, few will care about speaking German then either.)

[customguy]

> you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently.

"hurt feelings"? I started out mentioning to someone who I assume gets where I'm coming from, because they are not acting entitled and do not find Germans to be unwelcoming, that I don't respect Germans who don't learn the language of countries they move to. I've known a few and I hated their attitude.

If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. I'm just one person, I like open, friendly people. People who just walk past me without even looking at me, talking in English or some other language I still smile at them because that's what I do, and get nothing back. What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it.

And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak their mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way.

Frankly, if these people, people who can't be arsed to learn German, ever, are so great, maybe I'm just generous for being fine with them being a boon for some other country because as persons, I find them to be bores, the same way and for the same reason I do Germans who act that way. Many native Germans also are bores, but there isn't much that can be done about that. They also don't whine that other Germans should be more accepting of them so it's not a topic.

> not wanting to speak the language fluently.

Nice try moving the goal posts there. What's under discussion is not learning it at all, not even wanting to. Not "not being good enough" at it.

[mft_]

> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back.

Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums?

> What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it.

Well, you could be the change you want to see? Part of the problem that others are diagnosing in Germany is the attitude of some Germans; and you’re part of that group, no? Accepting this would be a small step forwards.

> And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak _their_ mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way.

For my part, you’re welcome to speak your mind, but that’s not really the issue. The previous poster and I have both given you evidence-based positions on specific weaknesses that Germany has, and suggested that the government and ultimately the people might want to address them for their own benefit. If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”, then… eh… there’s not really any point to discussing further.

(And you’ve still avoided addressing the well-meaning, informed, constructive criticisms.)

[customguy]

> Well, you could be the change you want to see?

Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a waste of time.

I simply said that if you move to a country and don't even want to learn the language, you're an asshole in my opinion, not because of your nationality but because of your character, and we won't be friends. Since you don't tackle that directly, at all, I take it you know there is no reasonable argument to make against that, and for the stuff you make up about me you really don't need me.

> If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”

Then maybe instead of being patronizing, to the point of just ignoring what I say, assume there is a good reason for that. Let's call it an inside perspective, a lived experience you don't have access to -- and by the way you conduct yourself, don't want to know about, and never will learn about.

Just give me an example of a country treated similarly. I totally assume I'm being biased, but I need an example to work on that, not your armchair analysis of me.

It's a simple ask, too. Where are the people demanding the Japanese are to be more inclusive, or whatever? And where is it almost exclusively a conversation between people who are not in or came to that country, without involving "natives" that are considered so problematic? This schizo twilight zone between people coming here from countries most Germans wouldn't dream of moving to posing to their families at home because they "made it" simply by being here, and then complaining that the German nation isn't to their liking? I'm not talking about a few hundred HN expat guys, you can do whatever. I'm talking about immigrants in Germany, period, and that in addition to xenophobic and cold Germans, there's a plenty of entitlement and dickishness among those immigrating. And we have a long and complicated history, we're not even remotely at ease with ourselves, and we're not your jukebox. Don't like the German "personality", that's great, there's plenty of others.

[mft_]

Let me have one more go. I'm 100% not trying to trigger or upset you. This is the chain of logic I'm trying to argue for, in very clear blunt terms.

1. Germany's economy and future is threatened by its demographics, and uniquely so due to the nature of its industry, and the need for skilled workers to maintain its economy.

2. Germany will therefore need to compete to attract these skilled workers against other countries.

3. Germany has strengths but also several weaknesses relative to other countries (tax burden, bureaucracy, public infrastructure, relative cost of living (vs. some not all competitors, note), language barrier and culture around language, etc.) in attracting such skilled workers.

4. To succeed at attracting the very best of the skilled workers it needs, it could/should therefore embark on a bold plan to address all of its weaknesses and make itself the most attractive country for skilled immigrants in the world.

5. Unfortunately for Germany, the standard language of business around the world is English. (If e.g. Chinese people want to learn or work internationally, they speak English professionally, etc.). If an English-speaker has a choice of two countries, one English-speaking and one German-speaking, then if all else is equal, they'll mostly not pick Germany. And some may be put off Germany altogether due to the relative intolerance of non-German speakers.

So, how best to address the language question?

If it was my country at threat, and we needed to attract a large number of a specific type of worker speaking a different language, (amongst other measures) I'd be advocating for removing the language issue as a barrier: for example, starting to teach Mandarin, or Hindi, or whatever language made most sense, in schools. Offering free adult education to learn those languages. Offering direct language support to businesses most needing to attract those skilled foreigners. Etc.

In Germany's case, to address this weakness, I'd advocate adopting English as a co-official language, if not the official language. Pour money and support into language training. Offer tax incentives for individuals and companies who become primarily English-speaking. Offer tax incentives and other support for English-speaking companies to part-relocate. And so on.

(Side note: this isn't a pro-English argument per se. If Germany decides it can more easily recruit the immigrants it needs from China, make Mandarin the co-official language. IDC.)

[mstaoru]

I think the misunderstanding here might be "skilled people who come to work in Germany for N years" (which Germany sorely needs) vs. "people who immigrate to Germany forever to make it their Sacred Motherland" and bring their grandma and 3 cats.

As above comment mentions, N-years people sometimes have circumstances that make language learning difficult. My initial comment proposes to be polite (in my own definition, admittedly) and make effort to include them in conversations (in work environments - you do you in social env), especially when all parties know that all parties can speak perfect English.

[mstaoru]

> accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in

Do expats in Germany walk around with "I've been in Germany X months" clock on their foreheads? :) Of course you learn eventually... some faster than others. And some not fast enough before "maybe I should just work in Switzerland" kicks in.

[mft_]

The indigenous Swiss have the same attitude; it's just that in the major cities and companies, the concentration of English-speakers is so high, it's not such a problem.