[mft_]

> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back.

Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums?

> What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it.

Well, you could be the change you want to see? Part of the problem that others are diagnosing in Germany is the attitude of some Germans; and you’re part of that group, no? Accepting this would be a small step forwards.

> And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak _their_ mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way.

For my part, you’re welcome to speak your mind, but that’s not really the issue. The previous poster and I have both given you evidence-based positions on specific weaknesses that Germany has, and suggested that the government and ultimately the people might want to address them for their own benefit. If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”, then… eh… there’s not really any point to discussing further.

(And you’ve still avoided addressing the well-meaning, informed, constructive criticisms.)

[customguy]

> Well, you could be the change you want to see?

Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a waste of time.

I simply said that if you move to a country and don't even want to learn the language, you're an asshole in my opinion, not because of your nationality but because of your character, and we won't be friends. Since you don't tackle that directly, at all, I take it you know there is no reasonable argument to make against that, and for the stuff you make up about me you really don't need me.

> If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”

Then maybe instead of being patronizing, to the point of just ignoring what I say, assume there is a good reason for that. Let's call it an inside perspective, a lived experience you don't have access to -- and by the way you conduct yourself, don't want to know about, and never will learn about.

Just give me an example of a country treated similarly. I totally assume I'm being biased, but I need an example to work on that, not your armchair analysis of me.

It's a simple ask, too. Where are the people demanding the Japanese are to be more inclusive, or whatever? And where is it almost exclusively a conversation between people who are not in or came to that country, without involving "natives" that are considered so problematic? This schizo twilight zone between people coming here from countries most Germans wouldn't dream of moving to posing to their families at home because they "made it" simply by being here, and then complaining that the German nation isn't to their liking? I'm not talking about a few hundred HN expat guys, you can do whatever. I'm talking about immigrants in Germany, period, and that in addition to xenophobic and cold Germans, there's a plenty of entitlement and dickishness among those immigrating. And we have a long and complicated history, we're not even remotely at ease with ourselves, and we're not your jukebox. Don't like the German "personality", that's great, there's plenty of others.

[mft_]

Let me have one more go. I'm 100% not trying to trigger or upset you. This is the chain of logic I'm trying to argue for, in very clear blunt terms.

1. Germany's economy and future is threatened by its demographics, and uniquely so due to the nature of its industry, and the need for skilled workers to maintain its economy.

2. Germany will therefore need to compete to attract these skilled workers against other countries.

3. Germany has strengths but also several weaknesses relative to other countries (tax burden, bureaucracy, public infrastructure, relative cost of living (vs. some not all competitors, note), language barrier and culture around language, etc.) in attracting such skilled workers.

4. To succeed at attracting the very best of the skilled workers it needs, it could/should therefore embark on a bold plan to address all of its weaknesses and make itself the most attractive country for skilled immigrants in the world.

5. Unfortunately for Germany, the standard language of business around the world is English. (If e.g. Chinese people want to learn or work internationally, they speak English professionally, etc.). If an English-speaker has a choice of two countries, one English-speaking and one German-speaking, then if all else is equal, they'll mostly not pick Germany. And some may be put off Germany altogether due to the relative intolerance of non-German speakers.

So, how best to address the language question?

If it was my country at threat, and we needed to attract a large number of a specific type of worker speaking a different language, (amongst other measures) I'd be advocating for removing the language issue as a barrier: for example, starting to teach Mandarin, or Hindi, or whatever language made most sense, in schools. Offering free adult education to learn those languages. Offering direct language support to businesses most needing to attract those skilled foreigners. Etc.

In Germany's case, to address this weakness, I'd advocate adopting English as a co-official language, if not the official language. Pour money and support into language training. Offer tax incentives for individuals and companies who become primarily English-speaking. Offer tax incentives and other support for English-speaking companies to part-relocate. And so on.

(Side note: this isn't a pro-English argument per se. If Germany decides it can more easily recruit the immigrants it needs from China, make Mandarin the co-official language. IDC.)