[throw10920]

That's one of the big cultural differences that people from the West don't really get - that "saving face" is one of the core concepts that Eastern societies are built on - not the actual things that, when discovered, cause you to lose face (e.g. corruption).

[Revanche1367]

Ah, the old “only western people have morals, everyone else just cares about how it looks” argument. And where did you get this super objective assessment that eastern peoples only care about “saving face”? Couldn’t be a stereotype popularized by western people to feel better about themselves could it? The racists always come out in full force under any post showing an eastern country doing something better than the US in particular.

[throw10920]

> Ah, the old “only western people have morals, everyone else just cares about how it looks” argument.

That's not even remotely close to what I said. You should read the comment you're responding before responding with ignorant and blatantly manipulative falsehoods.

> And where did you get this super objective assessment that eastern peoples only care about “saving face”?

Again - never said anything like that. Learn to read.

> The racists

Actually, learn to think. This has absolutely nothing to do with race, as anyone who has passed high school can tell you. This claim is straight-up objectively false.

The second you start slinging the word "racist" around you immediately prove that you have zero valid points to give and are just trying to cry your way into acceptance. Which correlates with the rest of this post.

This is either a troll post, written by a middle-schooler, or blatant propaganda.

[isr]

I'm not the guy who responded to you, but “only western people have morals, everyone else just cares about how it looks” is pretty much what you tried to imply.

And before you start on me, yes - I'm able to "think", and no, I'm not a "troll"

If its not what you wanted to imply, then perhaps you'd be better served at owning up & clarifying, rather than insulting others who merely pointed out what you originally wrote.

And on a general note (not specifically or only you), I'm somewhat amused (in a morbid sense) at the sheer predictability of some of the "oh no, don't you dare try to impugn any moral superiority to that lot over there, vs us westerners" reactions.

Refreshing to see how even after a multi year ongoing genocide, kidnappings other countries presidents, and triple-tap bombing little girls elementary schools, westerners still feel they own the "moral high ground" (wherever that is anymore ...)

[throw10920]

> pretty much what you tried to imply

Ahhh, the propagandist's classic tactic - when unable to muster even the feeblest possible response to an argument, just make up things and pretend that the other party said them.

Fact: I said nothing of the sort. You are lying.

> owning up

I have nothing to own up to because I said nothing of the sort, and anyone with basic reading skills can see that.

> clarifying

I was exactly as clear as I needed to be. I do not need to provide every single possible hedge on my statements. It is ok to not be perfectly clear and disclaim every negative, and this is now normal, sane, socially well-adjusted people behave.

It is completely unacceptable (and more than a little psychotic) to take that ambiguity and interpret it in the worst possible way.

It is downright evil to then defend that malicious misinterpretation instead of apologizing.

You are evil.

[isr]

Hmm, so I am "evil" and a "propagandist"? I think you need to go into a dark room & quietly contemplate for a while.

Have fun. Over and out.

[throw10920]

You are straight-up lying about my own words. Yes, you are both, and thank you for conclusively discrediting your own position instead of responding with something that'd actually require effort to dispute (such as a logical argument based on facts).

[anigbrowl]

Saving face is certainly A Thing, but China has also had a strict legalistic tradition extending back about 2500 years. There's rather more to Chinese public life and philosophy than 'Confucius say' and the CCP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

[throw10920]

You got it. I'm not saying that saving face is the only cultural priority - just that it's a much greater one than in most Western cultures - and most Westerners don't understand that, and that leads to misunderstanding of the mindset and rationale for actions and decisions.

[SepiaSapient]

(Spoilers for The Wire)

I buy the whole thing that some cultures give more weight to face-saving than others. I would classify my supposedly western country (Chile) as one that gives it more weight than, for example, Germany. Even then, this just sounds like a kneejerk "you cannot trust these dastardly orientals".

Face saving is a thing in the US, to the point that it's a common plot point prestige TV (e.g most of The Wire). It's an accepted fact in political campaign with spin doctors. The 30K in credit card debt to keep up appearances is also face culture. The hustle culture, etc.

You don't need to be racist, you just can be skeptic of the claims of an autocratic government.

[throw10920]

Nowhere did I say that Western countries don't care about saving face - it's just not a deeply embedded cultural priority that is nearly as valued as it is in many Eastern cultures (including, relevantly, China).

[saimiam]

How is the existence of a PR/spin industry, the fact that many Americans live way beyond their means, or the proliferation of influencers whose job is to show a specific story not evidence of a society that values appearances and will do a lot to protect face?

[throw10920]

> a society that values appearances and will do a lot to protect face

Read my comment again, carefully, and you'll understand that your response is unrelated to my point.

Also: all of these things exist in large, industrialized Eastern nations too. You've clearly never lived in any of those places or even had tangential exposure to their culture. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - just understand that you are exactly the kind of person who is going to have the hardest time understanding the cultural difference - which is part of my point.

[saimiam]

What, in your estimation, is the difference between saving face in China versus keeping-up-with-the-Joneses in America?

[throw10920]

There's no "in my estimation" - this is a well-researched topic and the vast majority of sociologists agree that there is a major cultural difference between the two, starting with the fact that "keeping up with the Joneses" is an individual act of pride vs "saving face" in China not only involves individual pride of an objectively greater magnitude, but also a collective pride that is rare in Western cultures and almost unheard of in highly individualistic cultures like the United States.

For understanding this better - you can try to read the Wikipedia page on the concept of face ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept) ), but part of my point is that academic/intellectual understanding is a really poor substitute for experience in this domain, and reading a page allows for intellectual disagreement that is literally inconsistent with reality - experience forces you to directly confront that reality.

I'd suggest watching a few hundred hours of media from several different Eastern cultures (I personally like a mix between Japanese, Korean, and Chinese television shows - they each have their own memetics and charm and can be highly enjoyable - but most forms of media should give you the same experience as long as it's diverse enough).

[ClumsyPilot]

Wasnt the especially hard trial and punishment of Chelsea manning, assange, etc. not a punishment by the western establishment for losing face?

[throw10920]

...no? Not that the answer to that question is even relevant to the comment I actually wrote.

[ClumsyPilot]

I am pointing out the whole ‘losing face’ thing exists in the west too.

If you cause certain people to lose face, you will get China-like response.

In fact it’s a core conservative value and you can observe it in interactions with police - if a victim embarrasses the police they will prosecute the victim instead of the perpetrator

[throw10920]

> I am pointing out the whole ‘losing face’ thing exists in the west too.

Yes, in the sense that a bicycle and a Formula F1 are both wheeled modes of transportation.

I never said that western cultures don't have the concept of pride - just that it's categorically different in eastern cultures.

This is both extremely well academically supported[1] and immediately obvious to anyone who has nontrivial exposure to most eastern cultures (including, specifically, Chinese culture).

Furthermore, the punishment of Chelsea manning is clearly irrelevant for multiple different reasons:

1. Specific instances are not reflective of a general pattern

2. Manning and Assange were instances of leakers of classified information, which is a separate category from merely "losing face"

3. There's a consistent pattern of the US government prosecuting leakers of classified information[2] even when there's zero media exposure, which conclusively disproves the "its just saving face" theory

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)#Re...

[2] https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases?search_api_fullt...

[dnautics]

yeah since when does "saving face" not happen in the West? Isn't there a war in europe that's been going on for four-ish years now that essentially a face-saving operation that has killed nearly a million?

[underlipton]

There was a great essay I read a few years ago that I can't locate, about how much of Western society is driven by the threat or actualization of humiliation. The Black Freedom Struggle (all incarnations) was won (inasmuch as it was won) not really through moral appeals or the imposition of practical reality, as much as through the humiliation of the slaver/segregationist position on the global stage and in the media.

You want to win? Make them look stupid in such a way that continuing to fight makes them look even more stupid. Pain doesn't stop people, practical futility doesn't stop people; but, faced with the prospect of being considered persona non grata or a laughing stock or just robbed of their dignity, whether they win or lose, that is when people will call the match and walk off.

So, yes, face is a Western thing, too.

[iamnothere]

I would say it’s worse in the West, as we have generalized the concept across society to the point where our politicians (and even our militaries) are only able to fight symbolically. Actual ground truth has become secondary.

See also: oil futures, politicians who feud over “vibes” instead of tangible policy, constant symbolic strikes in war with no results, etc.

[blaufuchs]

Yeah it’s pretty funny how worked up the CCP get when they’re called out. “How dare you accuse us of launching a spy balloon?”. Whereas Russia hits you with the “oh those aren’t FSB agents, just lovers on vacation ;)”

[ClumsyPilot]

Well I given that it wasn’t a spy balloon in the end, perhaps they had a point

[nixon_why69]

I mean, the entire concept of "spy balloon over the continental US in the 21st century" could be considered a litmus test for critical thinking.

A country with satellites is running a Wile E. Coyote tier balloon plot?

[throw10920]

Yes, and if you think it's not feasible, you failed the critical thinking test. Balloons have the ability to observe signals that satellites do not. It's that simple.

[nixon_why69]

While being incredibly obvious and easy (and justified) to shoot down, as we saw.

But enlighten me. What critical signals intelligence was that balloon getting?