[jillesvangurp]

A lot of these US vendors have data centers in the EU operating under EU law via legal entities in the EU. So, it's not all that black and white. And there are a growing amount of EU based alternatives.

And just to make a counter point, there are also US dependencies on the EU for some things as well. Mobile infrastructure is a good example; mostly comes from Nokia and Ericsson. What was left of US based network equipment makers was merged and acquired in the early 2000s. For example Bell Labs is currently owned by Nokia. It includes bits and bobs that once belonged to companies like Lucent and Motorola.

Another dependency is shipping; the US has very few ship yards left and is looking increasingly to the EU for things like icebreakers and some navy ships. Likewise, ASML the industry leader when it comes to making lithography machines used in chip making is based in the EU as well. And of course a lot of manufacturing uses machines made in e.g. Germany.

IMHO this mutual interdependence is actually a good thing. It stimulates maintaining peaceful relations and engaging in trade. We could use a little more of that. Isolationism didn't lead to anything good last century either.

[nicce]

> A lot of these US vendors have data centers in the EU operating under EU law via legal entities in the EU.

Didn’t even Microsoft say that they can’t guarantee that they can follow these laws? Because the US laws take over. So, legal entities are just some smoke screen. They don’t help if the US government wants access to something.

[graemep]

They did say that last year: https://www.theregister.com/off-prem/2025/07/25/microsoft-ex...

[judge2020]

I believe this was the Schrems 2 case from 2020 that declared that the EU US Privacy Shield was insufficient at guaranteeing the privacy of EU citizens due to the CLOUD act, which would require US companies work with the government to potentially spy on EU citizens.

I’m not sure what has happened since then or the legal status of this issue.

[inigyou]

The US under Biden did something that made it valid again and then the US under Trump made it invalid again. Right now it's illegal for an EU company to store unencrypted personal data with any US company.

[throwaway894345]

> IMHO this mutual interdependence is actually a good thing. It stimulates maintaining peaceful relations and engaging in trade. We could use a little more of that. Isolationism didn't lead to anything good last century either.

I think interdependence is a good thing, but I think the EU is _reliant_ on the US militarily and economically and that's ... not great particularly when the US leadership is openly hostile toward Europe (and toward the US for that matter). I'm speaking as an American.

[koe123]

As it pertains to military, just wait a few years I think.

[InTheArena]

The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world.

International commerce and business and shared democratic norms are a fscking good things. We have lost the people who learned that the hard way, and they are being replaced with people who have never read a history book.

[embedding-shape]

> The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world.

Name one country with a large military force that done more good than bad with it? Seems to come with the territory that if you have a large military force, you somehow need to use it for something as otherwise it falls into disrepair, and that "something" tends to be trying to spread your culture one way or another.

Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries, basically every other superpower been abusing their military to make the world worse.

[jq-r]

> Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries

Philippines would disagree with this one.

[embedding-shape]

Yeah, that's my bad, I later correctly used "superpower" rather than "country" but missed that on my first usage. Was talking about "the big bois countries" :)

[throwaway894345]

While I applaud the strides the EU is taking to decouple militarily, it's still a long ways away from replacing the security umbrella provided by the US military. The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure (although NATO provides a lot of interoperability between European militaries). It's no knock on Europe's efforts--it's just that the dependency on US military was almost a century in the making--it's not going to be undone overnight. But Europe is moving in the right direction--I just hope Europe stays the course and continues to take it seriously.

[embedding-shape]

> The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure

That's... how EU works, intentionally? It's a decentralized union more or less, we're still independent countries with our own laws and what not, each country have their own command and control structure for their own military, on purpose.

[Terr_]

They aren't talking about the EU per se getting a military command layer, they're talking about the problem faced by a group of sovereign entities which mostly overlaps with EU member states.

Specifically, the problem of how those states can individually choose to plug their forces into a practiced system of military coordination.

Today, they can do that with NATO, but if they want an alternative, it doesn't exist and it will be difficult to build.

[tick_tock_tick]

You mean decades; especially if they keep up waffling.

[inigyou]

This is funny because "waffen" is the German word for "weapons"

[tonyhart7]

what Europe option anyway ???? other than US another power that can fill up the space is China

or are european saying china is better than US ????

[input_sh]

Well for one thing, China wasn't adamant about annexing territory belonging to a European nation like half a year ago.

[dijit]

their eyes are firmly on Africa.

Not being able to stand on our own feet is going to be a major problem because of the implied soft power. It nerfs our ability to ever have a spine on any issue.

[Root_Denied]

China has spent the last couple of decades making inroads into Africa to secure raw materials, not because they want to annex anything on the continent.

[0cf8612b2e1e]

Renewed calls just today! Give us Greenland or we pull out of Europe entirely.

[betorabinovich]

It's certainly easier to do business with countries that aren't governed by a psychotic moron that likes to threaten your cost equation on a weekly basis to enrich its cronies

[DaSHacka]

...and you're saying this as a point to why dealing with China is easier?

[650REDHAIR]

I don’t remember the last time China threatened to invade Denmark?

I do remember the last time the USA did. It was hours ago at a NATO summit.

[InTheArena]

s/China/Taiwan?

or Tibet?

You are comparing sensational trolls with actual geopolitical history.

[mongol]

Trolling or not, we take it seriously when the US threatens our territorial sovereignity (speaking as a European 100 percent behind Denmark)

[surgical_fire]

Taiwan and Tibet are eminently not in Europe.

Should we casually throw around all places the US invaded too?

[throwaway894345]

“Guys, he’s obviously just trolling—he would never actually do that, it would be insane!”

-MAGA Right before Trump tried to steal the 2020 election, militarily occupy US cities, annul various amendments, start the Iran War, etc.

[650REDHAIR]

Are you suggesting Trump is “trolling” Greenland?

And admittedly I didn’t realize Taiwan was in Europe. Sorry.

[tonyhart7]

Greenland invasion is just a joke

no one take Trump seriously

[Terr_]

Suppose a dementia patient with a gun declares that they are ready to shoot the tooth-fairy, which has been stalking them to steal their molars.

You might not take their words as a true statement of fact, but the situation going on is still pretty damn serious!

[mongol]

Oh yes, we take him very seriously. He has started two wars just this year.

[lyu07282]

China is very successfully developing and competing with the US, so it is self evident that Europe should continue to do the exact opposite of everything that China is doing.

[throwaway894345]

As an American, it helps that the US is actively self-sabotaging.

[atoav]

Yes, but if any US three-letter agency knocks at a US companies door and says: "Nice business you have there", will they resist just to not sell out their EU customers? I don't think so.

And the patriot act exists, so this is not just a theoretical worry. Meaning as an EU citizen I would like to ban US vendors completely till you guys get your house in order again. Not that we don't have our own wanna be autocrats and surveillance-lovers, but I think having authocratic laws should have consequences for the businesses in any country.

[embedding-shape]

> Yes, but if any US three-letter agency knocks at a US companies door and says: "Nice business you have there", will they resist just to not sell out their EU customers? I don't think so.

I don't think it's a matter of "resisting or not", they literally have no choice and can typically also not tell anyone because of gag orders. That's why things like Amazon's "EU Cloud" isn't really interesting to anyone in EU and Europe, ultimately there is a US entity that easily folds in favor of the US government, and there isn't much you can do about it unless you stay 100% clear from US entities with your data.

Not that I think our governments in Europe are much better, time and time again they demonstrate they don't care one iota about personal privacy of individuals, so I wouldn't be surprised European companies wouldn't resist even requests.

[atoav]

> I don't think it's a matter of "resisting or not", they literally have no choice and can typically also not tell anyone because of gag orders.

I would not rule out there are organizations/companies in the US who would rather give up their business than fold to the pressure, which is why I let this open. I know there are some US entities who have public carnary style notices ("We have not been visited by a government agency, ..."), with the idea being that while they can compell you to not say a thing, they can't force you to say a thing. How well that would work in practise, I dunno, but it shows that some in the US anticipate the issue and at least signal to care about it.

But in the end I agree with you, the safer route for people in the EU is to not deal with this risk to begin with.

[embedding-shape]

> I would not rule out there are organizations/companies in the US who would rather give up their business than fold to the pressure, which is why I let this open

I wouldn't rule that out either, but also to be entirely realistic, AFAIK, there been one (Lavabit) company in the last twenty-or-so years that went the way of quitting the business instead of just complying. People nowadays seem even less to give up profits in the name of principles, so I'd also wouldn't be surprised basically no one actually doesn't fold.