[throwaway894345]

> IMHO this mutual interdependence is actually a good thing. It stimulates maintaining peaceful relations and engaging in trade. We could use a little more of that. Isolationism didn't lead to anything good last century either.

I think interdependence is a good thing, but I think the EU is _reliant_ on the US militarily and economically and that's ... not great particularly when the US leadership is openly hostile toward Europe (and toward the US for that matter). I'm speaking as an American.

[koe123]

As it pertains to military, just wait a few years I think.

[InTheArena]

The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world.

International commerce and business and shared democratic norms are a fscking good things. We have lost the people who learned that the hard way, and they are being replaced with people who have never read a history book.

[embedding-shape]

> The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world.

Name one country with a large military force that done more good than bad with it? Seems to come with the territory that if you have a large military force, you somehow need to use it for something as otherwise it falls into disrepair, and that "something" tends to be trying to spread your culture one way or another.

Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries, basically every other superpower been abusing their military to make the world worse.

[jq-r]

> Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries

Philippines would disagree with this one.

[embedding-shape]

Yeah, that's my bad, I later correctly used "superpower" rather than "country" but missed that on my first usage. Was talking about "the big bois countries" :)

[throwaway894345]

While I applaud the strides the EU is taking to decouple militarily, it's still a long ways away from replacing the security umbrella provided by the US military. The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure (although NATO provides a lot of interoperability between European militaries). It's no knock on Europe's efforts--it's just that the dependency on US military was almost a century in the making--it's not going to be undone overnight. But Europe is moving in the right direction--I just hope Europe stays the course and continues to take it seriously.

[embedding-shape]

> The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure

That's... how EU works, intentionally? It's a decentralized union more or less, we're still independent countries with our own laws and what not, each country have their own command and control structure for their own military, on purpose.

[Terr_]

They aren't talking about the EU per se getting a military command layer, they're talking about the problem faced by a group of sovereign entities which mostly overlaps with EU member states.

Specifically, the problem of how those states can individually choose to plug their forces into a practiced system of military coordination.

Today, they can do that with NATO, but if they want an alternative, it doesn't exist and it will be difficult to build.

[tick_tock_tick]

You mean decades; especially if they keep up waffling.

[inigyou]

This is funny because "waffen" is the German word for "weapons"

[tonyhart7]

what Europe option anyway ???? other than US another power that can fill up the space is China

or are european saying china is better than US ????

[input_sh]

Well for one thing, China wasn't adamant about annexing territory belonging to a European nation like half a year ago.

[dijit]

their eyes are firmly on Africa.

Not being able to stand on our own feet is going to be a major problem because of the implied soft power. It nerfs our ability to ever have a spine on any issue.

[Root_Denied]

China has spent the last couple of decades making inroads into Africa to secure raw materials, not because they want to annex anything on the continent.

[0cf8612b2e1e]

Renewed calls just today! Give us Greenland or we pull out of Europe entirely.

[betorabinovich]

It's certainly easier to do business with countries that aren't governed by a psychotic moron that likes to threaten your cost equation on a weekly basis to enrich its cronies

[DaSHacka]

...and you're saying this as a point to why dealing with China is easier?

[650REDHAIR]

I don’t remember the last time China threatened to invade Denmark?

I do remember the last time the USA did. It was hours ago at a NATO summit.

[InTheArena]

s/China/Taiwan?

or Tibet?

You are comparing sensational trolls with actual geopolitical history.

[mongol]

Trolling or not, we take it seriously when the US threatens our territorial sovereignity (speaking as a European 100 percent behind Denmark)

[surgical_fire]

Taiwan and Tibet are eminently not in Europe.

Should we casually throw around all places the US invaded too?

[throwaway894345]

“Guys, he’s obviously just trolling—he would never actually do that, it would be insane!”

-MAGA Right before Trump tried to steal the 2020 election, militarily occupy US cities, annul various amendments, start the Iran War, etc.

[650REDHAIR]

Are you suggesting Trump is “trolling” Greenland?

And admittedly I didn’t realize Taiwan was in Europe. Sorry.

[tonyhart7]

Greenland invasion is just a joke

no one take Trump seriously

[Terr_]

Suppose a dementia patient with a gun declares that they are ready to shoot the tooth-fairy, which has been stalking them to steal their molars.

You might not take their words as a true statement of fact, but the situation going on is still pretty damn serious!

[mongol]

Oh yes, we take him very seriously. He has started two wars just this year.

[lyu07282]

China is very successfully developing and competing with the US, so it is self evident that Europe should continue to do the exact opposite of everything that China is doing.

[throwaway894345]

As an American, it helps that the US is actively self-sabotaging.