[rodh]

What always surprises me with these posts is the amount that developers make in San Francisco. Or possibly in the US as a whole.

I work in London for £31k ($50k), doing computer vision computer graphics (GLSL) and the occasional ML development. Mostly in C++ or Python. My rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is £1000/month ($1.6k/month) (the cost of which I thankfully share with my girlfriend).

Honestly, it's a constant struggle just getting by. Looking at the salaries offered on the job market, I don't think I'm the only one. Yet the demand appears to be high. I've seen job posts up for months on end on Linkedin. Every Hacker News meetup I've been to, almost everyone presenting is desperate for new hires.

How have we ended up with such a huge difference with respect to SF? I'm sure other jobs would be much more closely matched across the pond.

[jasonkester]

It sounds like you see all the pieces, so you hopefully have all the information you need to fix your situation.

Everybody finds themselves in the same underpaid first job (or three) out of school while they build a reputation. The important thing is to recognize when you've become a Computer Vision Specialist with strong C++ and Python skills and on that day go out and find the place that pays $200/hr for that sort of thing.

There are lots of that place. As you've no doubt noticed, none of them are advertising in the London newspapers. But if you started networking your way into the computer vision scene in California and maybe finding some folks who might be in a position to hire a guy for a remote position, I can't imagine you'd do much worse than you're doing now.

Incidentally, the fact that "everybody" is trying to hire at comically low salaries doesn't mean that the market salary is comically low. Quite the opposite. If the market really did contain skilled people willing to work for such terrible wages, those companies wouldn't be hiring anymore. The fact that they keep at it is adorable in a way, but from your perspective it should be taken as meaning that they're just not being realistic about what a skilled developer should cost.

[Nursie]

I don't disagree with the substance of what you're saying but software jobs in the UK, even in London, do not pay on the same scale as they do in the US AFAICT. Or Australia actually, by moving over there from London (where I was not in a bad job) I pretty much doubled my income.

The market has always been low for permanently employed computer folks here so far I as I can see, with the exception being the late 90s before the bubble burst.

[NateDad]

Interview, get ridiculously low offer, counter offer with something reasonable. Repeat until someone accepts your counter. With so many jobs out there, you should be able to get several interviews per weeks. Someone somewhere is going to finally say "screw it, we've been looking for 3 months, let's give this guy the extra $20k - we need this stuff done yesterday".

That, or all the software development companies in London will eventually fail from lack of employees.

[Nursie]

Might work for an individual with specific talents, might not.

As I say, the market is not in a depressed state at the moment, it's not the case that it's a ridiculously low offer that's what UK software jobs pay.

Software engineers are just not paid rockstar wages in the UK. So they will find people to fill many of the roles. Software salaries are still good compared to average wages, so people will go into it, and work for better-than-average-but-not-awesome money.

[jasonkester]

Another datapoint, since you seem to be seeing only low salaries in your circle: I only know a few developers who work in London, but they all make six figures.

So while it's no doubt true that there are lots of poorly paid positions, and evidently nearly enough developers willing to fill them, there are also plenty of good jobs to be had there.

[Nursie]

Financial industry in the city? Otherwise London contracting rates I would guess. I know nobody approaching that level of pay that's not doing one of those things, unless they've moved into non-dev areas of the businesses they're in.

You only know a few devs, I think your sample is highly skewed.

[jasonkester]

You only know a few devs, I think your sample is highly skewed.

Absolutely. That's why I mentioned it.

But at least now you know what you need to call yourself if you want to make market rates in London. Those two things you mention both translate back to "computer programmer" in terms of what you actually do. They just pay four times as much.

That's a pretty good direction to have things skewed if you ask me. If I were living in London, I'd definitely be skewing my sample of jobs that way.

[Nursie]

Those are not market rates, they're outliers in a small market segment.

And thanks, but I've known for years and I don't want to make those rates in London because I don't (and don't want to) live there...

[rodh]

Thank you! I have been working very hard to build my reputation in the computer vision industry, over the years I've worked where I am. I think I'm making headway, but I do realise I still have a long way to go. It's refreshing hearing some words of encouragement! Thank you for giving me more motivation to keep pushing on this cold morning commute to work.

[Patient0]

Have you taken a look on Jobserve lately? Contract rates in London of 500gbp per day are easily achievable with your skill set. You have to be good though...

Here's an email I received just a couple of days ago from a recruiter:

"Are you interested in the following contract or perm position..?

Key Tech: C++, STL, Boost, NAG, Real-time, Multi-threading, Parallel-processing, GPU (GPGPU / CUDA / OpenCL), Grid Computing, Agile, TDD.

Leading financial software house requires a number of talented C++ developers to work on high performance grid computing solutions for a tier 1 Investment Banking client based in London.

The successful candidate would be working with cutting edge hardware and state of the art software tools, delivering real-time pricing & risk applications, on-site in a Front Office environment.

Essential Skills: Proven ability to develop and maintain large C++ libraries using STL Strong core computer science knowledge; data structures, numerical algorithms Experience of high performance development; optimisation, threading, profiling Passion for technology, innovation and delivering outstanding software.

Desirable: Use of Boost & NAG libraries GPU programming, particularly GPGPU / CUDA / OpenCL Java and C# / .NET experience Compiler theory / cross-compilers / code generation Work experience in the finance industry, particularly front office

* Finance experience NOT essential, developers from a Gaming, Telecomms, Medical or Areospace type background welcome to apply *

Location: London Rate: £500-£650/day Duration: 12 month contract (depending on experience)

Apply with your latest CV or call for further info...

Or if you're not looking, feel free to forward this mail to a friend.

Regards,

 	 Jamie Burgess 

IT Division Huxley Associates 0207 469 5050 [e-mail] "

[Joeboy]

Recruiters sometimes advertise nonexistent jobs, or existent jobs at nonexistent rates, to get their foot in the door. I wouldn't necessarily take advertised jobs/rates on jobserve at face value.

[Patient0]

True - but there are also real jobs for this rate and higher. The advertised rate for that posting is lower than my current daily rate.

[rodh]

I have noticed this. There seems to be a massive gap between the finance sector and everyone else. I'm not too sure what to make of that. For the sake of comparison, the average salary for a Software Engineer at Google in London, according to Glassdoor (before bonuses) is £45k.

[Patient0]

I find that very hard to believe... that's way too low.

[Nursie]

I used to work for big blue in London and that would probably be about right for there too, if not slightly more generous.

Outside of the financial sector the money is just not that good in this country.

[Nursie]

Contracting, contracting, contracting.

Set up a limited company, get contracts. I am the owner of my company and set my own salary level and stock dividends, I also get to pay myself a huge bonus every quarter and it's more tax efficient than salary payments. Not tax-free, this is not some dodgy scheme involving offshoring or any of that nonsense it's just how contracting and/or freelancing tends to work. It is more effort and involves juggling accountants and various forms of insurance, you also need to be careful not to be hit by IR35 (mostly through working short term gigs for specific projects and having well-written contracts) but in the end you can be far better off.

The permanent jobs I'm offered/considered for tend to be in the 40-60k range, so I reckon I have a bit more experience than you, but I can make the net equivalent of that in six months contracting. I mostly program in C and I'm not even in London any more. I could probably almost double my rate if I was prepared to move to London.

--edit-- just thought I'd add - I wish I'd thought of it sooner, as your situation is a very familiar one to me from my time in the big smoke.

[rodh]

I've been considering that move. To be completely honest, that's actually what I was doing whilst at Univesrity. I had set up a limited company, working on my own content recommendation startup. I was also freelancing as a Php and ASP.net dev at the time. I was actually making more at the time than I am now, 3 years on from graduation. Such is the nature of contract work, I suppose.

The thing is, after University I fell out of love with web development, and in love with AI.

I'd like to continue in that field. But I can't imagine it's as easy to find contract work there. You can't simply point people to your portfolio.

I suppose I could have a go pointing to the papers I've published and the articles in magazines on my work. Perhaps something to look into more seriously.

Thanks for the advice, at any rate.

[Nursie]

No idea about job availability in your chosen field, but C software engineering isn't exactly the usual freelance/contract fare as far as I can tell either, and I found a contract within 20 miles of where I'm living on the south coast with ~3 weeks of looking around. Since then I've identified a few more opportunities.

If nothing else it's worth a look, good luck :)

[skrause]

I've always thought that people in very expensive cities would generally earn much more so that after substracting the cost of living you would end up with more or less the same.

I live in an economically weak city in the western region of Germany and make around $55k (pre-tax) as an average programmer in a small company in my third year after graduation. However, since the region has had a population decline for many years, the housing market is quite cheap and I can live alone in a comfortable 62 m² (670 square foot) apartment for around $500 a month.

Even though I earn just around average, I'm currently not very interested in moving to an economically strong region because my feeling is that the cost of living would probably just eat up whatever I would earn more.

[throwaway1979]

I think that is very wise. I grew up in Toronto, where programmer salaries were low and cost of living was middle-to-high. There used to be a wall around 60-80K per year. I moved to the US to regions where salaries go north of 100K easily. In the grand scheme of things, this was not an improvement. My cost of living increased drastically (paying 2700 in rent for an apartment). I always imagined having a house and kids at this stage in life. Financially, both seem like stretching it.

[danmaz74]

On the other hand, in an economically strong region you would then find many more opportunities to move upwards - if you're interested in that.

[adaml_623]

You are currently earning below the 10th percentile for C++ jobs advertised in London (that list a salary).

You might not get £60K or £80K straightaway but you will get £40K just by not accepting a tiny amount.

I think IT wages are flat due to everybody's fear of moving jobs.

[wladimir]

Indeed, London and surroundings are abnormally expensive to live in. This was one of the reasons for me to forego working there when I had the chance, even though I would gave gotten a slightly more interesting job and higher pay. So I stayed in the Netherlands, where living is still somewhat affordable.

I also wonder about the high difference in pay comparing SF to anywhere else. It's interesting how much geography still pays a big role in a supposedly 'flat' interconnected world, especially in job types that could easily be done remotely. I guess the 'flat' world is a myth up there with other modern myths such as 'meritocracy' :-)

I always imagined the future as moving somewhere where land is cheap, buy a house with plot of land, and then work remotely. No commuting, no busy office crap. But it's still very hard to do, even programmer jobs seem to all (well, mostly) require sitting your ass on a chair at a specific place. Usually in a city where it's expensive to live.

[steelcm]

London house prices are crazy expensive. My current flat costs me 2,000 GBP (~3,200 USD) pcm, and it's not event central London!

There does seem to be a propensity for "bums on seats" management style, and although I agree with the value of face-to-face communication there must be some middle ground which is beneficial for everyone. I guess it's hard to pay for an employee that you never see (even if you do see their work).

[wladimir]

I guess it's hard to pay for an employee that you never see

Then again we live in times with high bandwidth connections to almost everywhere, where video conferencing is easy, phone calls are free, setting up chat rooms is easy, distributed source control systems enable efficient collaborating on source code, and shared documents (such as Google Documents) are ubiquitous.

I'm sure a useful middle ground is possible, if companies were actually using all the toys they (help) develop themselves.

[yeureka]

I was in a similar situation a few years ago, working in games in London. The only way I found to increase my salary was switching to finance. It's not an interesting field to me, but my income doubled.

[arethuza]

Supply and demand - there are specialised development roles that can command up to £2000 a day in the UK, but you need a lot of domain knowledge and the development environment is possibly some of the worst there is.