[jijijijij]

I wonder how these will fare in Saxony. I presume it's an industry which will attract and depend on highly qualified foreign workers. Dresden itself may be fine, but parts of Saxony are sadly no-go areas for anyone remotely non-white, or even moderately liberal. It's a really brain-damaged region outside of Dresden and Leipzig, and even those cities are not exactly welcoming examples of diversity. Given a historic chance of prosperity, I think odds are eastern Germany will shoot itself in the foot epically with this.

[1718627440]

> but parts of Saxony are sadly no-go areas for anyone remotely non-white

Which is of course exaggerated as usually and if you are referring to the AFD, my take is that the focus on the eastern part is just cope by the western part, they are rising the same in the western part, the eastern is just ahead of the curve. This is very much a problem of the complete country. If the administration(s) manage to bring back the economy, than the AFD will also go away, if they don't then this will be the far bigger issue for any industry rather than the public perception of the workers.

> I think odds are eastern Germany will shoot itself in the foot epically with this.

How are they shooting themself in the foot, by investing into semiconductors? Even if it eventually fails, how would this be worse, then not having done anything? Also the odds of this failing (like the one in Magdeburg) are rather small. This is the news that the construction is finished, and it is a new module in an already existing factory of an already existing company in exactly this place. I don't believe the company is going to axe it, AFTER the factory is built and the costs were spent. This doesn't make any sense.

[jijijijij]

> Which is of course exaggerated as usually and if you are referring to the AFD, my take is that the focus on the eastern part is just cope by the western part, they are rising the same in the western part, the eastern is just ahead of the curve.

Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec...

There is a reason, every young person with half a brain moves to Leipzig/Dresden, or leaves Saxony completely. Cope...The problem with right wing extremism in the area predates the AfD, Saxony was always in the top three for right wing hate crimes. Maybe read criminal stats or Verfassungsschutzberichte instead of crying injustice. Dude, you can't blame lack of decency and empathy on the economy forever... And it won't get better by ignoring shit feeling entitled to outside help fixing your mess.

> How are they shooting themself in the foot, by investing into semiconductors?

Maybe read the comment you replied to. The investment into semiconductors is the great chance for prosperity, reactionary politics and xenophobia how they ruin it.

Public perception is already brilliant: https://www.fr.de/politik/vorsicht-ostdeutschland-11150062.h...

[1718627440]

> Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec...

> Im Jahr 2024 verzeichneten Opferberatungsstellen in Sachsen 328 rechtsmotivierte Angriffe, von denen mindestens 446 Personen direkt betroffen waren.

According to https://www.statistik.sachsen.de/html/lebenserwartung-gestor... there were 56.968 dead people in Saxony. Assuming all of those attacks killed all people which they didn't, you are 120 times more likely to just die, than to be in one of those attacks. According to https://www.lpr.sachsen.de/download/Lagebild_HGW_2024.pdf, there were 10.202 cases of domestic violence in the same year.

I'm not saying it does not exist, I am saying that while there are dangerous people and situations in a society and this is one of them, there is no reason, to act like this is dominating entire landscapes. What I find way more concerning is the 32.3% increase in the same year.

Btw, there were 3612 cases in Bavaria[0] in 2024. This means there were 8 cases per 100k inhabitants in Saxony and 27 in Bavaria[1] Do you also want to claim, that Bavaria is a dangerous shithole? It doesn't seem to hurt the industry there.

> Cope...

That was referring to the common trope, that the AFD is solely an issue for the dumb Eastern part and it would never happen in the oh-so-educated Western part.

> Dude, you can't blame lack of decency and empathy on the economy forever... And it won't get better by ignoring shit feeling entitled to outside help fixing your mess.

I don't think political ignorance and frustration directly correlates with day-to-day empathy. But I do think 60 years of propaganda do something to a population and this issue is massively ignored and underestimated. Thinking this doesn't have any effect is saying they sucked at their job, which I think they really didn't, they were professionals in their own kind.

> Public perception is already brilliant: https://www.fr.de/politik/vorsicht-ostdeutschland-11150062.h...

That is exactly what I mean with exaggeration and cope. This is an example of the Western part claiming the high-ground and planting the idea, that this can never happen in the West and is just these stupid Easterns, ignoring that there is very much a radicalism tourism, with people also coming from the West. I do live in Dresden, no there are no "no-go areas". That's just fear mongering and lying.

[0] https://www.gruene-fraktion-bayern.de/themen/demokratie-gege... [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demografie_Deutschlands#mwKak

[jijijijij]

My man, I didn't even bring up the AfD. So think about that for a moment and do some introspection. You are projecting a lot.

And downplaying those numbers with all cause mortality... Maybe think about that too, hm?!

And your source states Bavaria had 144 violent right wing crimes, which is the number to match. Don't even sweat, for other reasons I would call it a shit hole too. But please, redo the math and be sure to not contrast the total population but the relevant potential victim populations. You know, since xenophobic violence isn't threatening everyone the same...

I live in east Germany and speak from experience. So maybe you are the arrogant one trying to ostplain the world to those seeing just fine.

[Tade0]

Hello, GP here. I'm Polish, living in lower Silesia, so not that far from Saxony. My colleague, who worked on that plant, is also originally from this region, but moved to Dresden several years ago.

Either the same problem is much worse over here(possible[0]), or he isn't affected by it.

[0] On the flip side Koreans working at the LG plant here and associated Korean-owned businesses don't seem to mind.

[flohofwoe]

Tbh, for living in the East you sure have the clichee of the arrogant and ignorant 'Wessi' internalized to a P. The idea that there are 'no-go-zones' in Saxony is just silly (I have grown up in one of those apparently 'nazi-infested' areas, my entire family lives there and I visit every couple of weeks). Yes there is a significant far-right problem, and no I don't have a solution either, but as far as hardcore neonazis go, that problem was far worse in the 1990s and early 2000s than now (this was when the 'old nazis' from West Germany moved into East Germany to build their networks - sowing the seeds basically).

Today there are plenty of 'non-white' (as you call them) refugees and asylum seekers (mostly from Syria and Afghanistan) and many more Ukrainian refugees (which for a while were the main target for Russian/AfD propaganda in East Germany) living in Saxon small towns, and 'somehow' it seems to work out (just travel by train or bus through the more rural areas of Saxony for a bit and you'll see).

In conclusion, your black and white world view and generalized insults towards East Germans are quite frankly disgusting.

[jijijijij]

Wrong comment? I wasn't talking to you and you didn't address any argument made, just reiterating the ever same Ossi vs. Wessi blabla.

> I have grown up in one of those apparently 'nazi-infested' areas, my entire family lives there and I visit every couple of weeks.

And are you even targeted by racism to make yours a relevant experience? Do you even try to understand the problem?

Man, and you even got some refugees! Saxony has one of the lowest shares of migrants and people with a migration background in all of Germany. Even Leipzig and in particular Dresden show up at the bottom compared with other German cities. That's facts.

* https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrationshintergrund * https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel...

In contrast, as shown above, Saxony has one of the highest rates of violent crimes motivated by right wing extremism (going on for decades). Tendenz steigend. All together, this makes Saxony factually one of the most dangerous and unwelcoming places to be for anyone targeted by racists. And dude, this is violent crimes, it doesn't even consider the daily verbal hostilities etc..

Maybe, just maybe, if people there would care as much about this very real problem as they care about its perception, things would change for the better. Making yourself the victim is what's disgusting.

[moritzwarhier]

As a Western German myself (who doesn't vote AfD), I'm inclined to agree.

Division and looking down on people, especially using attributes like "braindead", is arrogant and also just adds to the political capital of the far right.

Things that are not direct calls to violence or tearing down democracy must be acceptable parts of the discussion. And calling people who have opinions you consider hostile or wrong "stupid" has never helped anyone. Even when these opinions already cross the line of what's acceptable or are really "stupid" in your best-faith interpretation.

The Ossi/Wessi thing is especially problematic to bring up I feel. Also, the German East has been attracting industry and science facilities for quite a long time. And parts of Western Germany still seem to have issues with losing their perceived cultural hegemony.

But this process should be welcome to anyone who honestly wants a united Germany state.

Sowing division by looking down on the "former DDR" is a poison to democracy, just like yearning for autocracy.

The term "former DDR" is only recently going out of style in Western Germany, and that already says a lot.

Looking down on the AFD is understandable when you detest right-wing ideology, but it is no more helpful than laughing about people who were nostalgic about parts of the former DDR.

Adding arrogant arguments about wealth, the economy or cosmopolitanism will only increase this division and also the success of the AFD in the West.

For example, rejecting to celebrate and awe at cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism is not "Nazi".

That being said, yes, there are violent Nazis in Germany, many but not only in Eastern Germany.

Pointing fingers at only this problem just further sows division though, and it should also be clear that the far right that is active in the East is not a seperate entity from the far right in Western Germany.

Some regions in Western Germany also have strong far right hegemony, or are shifting to it, especially the poorer regions.

Sowing division about wealth and relating it to xenophobia is not helpful in increasing tolerance or decreasing frustration of working people.

And there is a shrinking part of the German left that ostentatiously is about human values, but has an ambivalent relationship towards capitalism, while rejecting any and all remotely critical sentiments regarding immigration. Often, even rejecting the German state: considering themselves leftists, but at the same time being deeply intertwined with the dominant cultural and political currents, and often enjoying a lot of wealth.

The arrogance of this "wealthy liberal establishment" as an issue is not much different from what helped Trump get elected, I feel.

The contradictory combination of being anti-right, pro-immigration, demanding of material wealth and at the same time claiming the moral arrogance of being on the morally "good" side will not slow down the decline of the left party of the political spectrum.

[chmod775]

> I wonder how these will fare in Saxony. I presume it's an industry which will attract and depend on highly qualified foreign workers.

Saxony has had a decently-sized or large (by German standards) microelectronics sector for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony

As you'd probably guess, they're mostly situated around Leipzig and Dresden.

[jijijijij]

I know about the historic connection, but that doesn't change the political/cultural climate in the area.

As a matter of fact, the chairman of Silicon Saxony is concerned as well: https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2024-02/afd-sachsen-silicon-s...

Not to mention federal politicians doing their best to kill the German economy and motivation to work at all, it's quite hard to imagine why any foreign engineer would chose to move to Saxony of all places. Have you been to the countryside in the Bundesland? It's bad. Neonazi and racism all over the place. Literally visible to the casual observer, you don't even have to talk to anyone. T-shirts, stickers, graffiti, stupid notices, ... people there don't hide it.

[NonHyloMorph]

Dresden and especially Leipzig are quite nice though - lots of culture, music and art. Also close to Berlin. It's not exactly like you would have to travel through the countryside by carriage to get anywhere. I agree that the political and cultural situation outside the cities there is sad though.

[jijijijij]

I am frequently in Leipzig, it's indeed a very nice city. But it's also immediately obvious people with a (visible) migration background are a smaller minority than elsewhere (which is backed by stats). So for a lived experience, I would strongly suggest talking to those minorities. The reports I heard speak of a lot of casual racism.

While you don't have to travel by carriage, you may even use the airport, avoiding the Umland is still an alienating and saddening state of affairs you can hardly call acceptable. For example, Saxony has absolutely beautiful nature along the Elbsandsteingebirge/Sächsische Schweiz, but those areas are also notoriously hot spots of the violent far right (e.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinheads_S%C3%A4chsische_Schw...). For me it felt moderately dangerous, as a white person. As an Indian, are you gonna join your colleagues on "workation" there, are you gonna bring up your worries? It's all fine, bro, racism in Saxony is all Wessi propaganda, bro. Just avoid leaving the safe zones.

[NonHyloMorph]

I don't disagree and I don't think think that it's a good state of affairs. Whether acceptable is a legitimate category here i have some doubts about. There is definetly people that do not accept the status quo there (for good reasons) and try to become acively engaged in doing something about it. To state that it is not acceptable kinda evokes the image of some higher force that intervenes and changes the situation; idk seems weird. Would be nice if the xenophopic and far right resentfull mindset would stop holding it's grasp over such huge portions of the population. (Globally, too)

[jijijijij]

> To state that it is not acceptable kinda evokes the image of some higher force that intervenes and changes the situation

Yes, this higher force is morality and conscience. Going back to the original argument, Saxony isn't sponsoring these developments all by itself. It's a larger collective's effort. As a tax paying citizen, I am entitled to judge the situation and at the very least demand conditions for success, or ask for reallocation of resources to more fertile grounds.

As can be seen in this thread, the people living in these regions feel zero accountability or problem awareness. Unsurprisingly you even see the common "How dare you call us Nazis, we're just against multiculturalism and anything woke", ironically proving the point: Foreign engineers are not welcome. The foreign workers are not all going to be drawn from white Norway and Poland (what an idiotic assumption), but India and Asia etc.. They will make the landscape "multicultural". Not too mention the higher percentage of queer and other "woke" minorities in the tech sector, which are also "just" not welcome. After all, being not accepted at home may be another reason to seek shelter elsewhere.

Saxony is not full of Nazis, just people who kinda prefer the authoritarian ethnostate. Wessis need to be more accepting of the fact Pride parades are cancelled. And did you know, statistically you are far more likely to die by other means, than a hate crime in Saxony!

Quite frankly, you can't get to them (reactionary idiots) through rational discussion. It's been tried over and over again. We don't know how to do it, but talking to them isn't it. Meeting them with brainrot TikTok, seems to be somewhat effective (see Linke campaign), but in the end the simplistic answers win social media and the right got a natural edge there. They are living in informational bubbles and, in the East, due to liberal people leaving/fleeing (no judgement), these bubbles become lived realities. Worth noting: The high AfD turnouts are likely due to demographics, population density is really, really low across the east. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course there is historic baggage, too, but it's not just the old fucks, so at last let's start putting accountability where it belongs. The people there need to change, if they want the economic prosperity they feel entitled to. Rainald Grebe's "Brandenburg" is 20 years old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uellmynA34U

And yes, some of this entitlement and mental retardation is also rapidly growing in the West. All of Germany is very sick, geriatric, mismanaged and racing towards precarious inequality. Whatever the East is cooking is not the solution, so let's not call it a virtue.