[sambuccid]

It doesn't solve the current issue, but in case we don't manage to push back on this, some people might not know that there are various actual linux OSes for mobile:

- SailfishOS: still linux based and seems fairly community inclusive, but the UI part of the stack is closed source. Is the only one officially allowed to run android apps, via emulation. Has existed for a very long time, it's lightweight and I think the most stable/bug-free in this list.

- Ubuntu Touch: fully open source and community driven, it uses snap packages for security, you might be able to run android apps. Last time I run it also seemed fairly stable/bug-free.

- PureOS: fully open source and privacy focused. I think it's the only one that, released with the Librem 5, can avoid using proprietary blobs for interfacing with the hardware. Seems less stable than SailfishOS and Ubuntu Touch. You would need to buy a fairly expensive-but-old phone(librem 5) to run it.

- PostmarketOS: fully open source, focused on being lightweight and revive old phones, has a huge amount of phones it has been tested on, is based on Alpine.

- Mobian: mobile version of Debian, it's fairly new on this list.

There are many more linux mobile OSes, but as far as I know these are the main ones. There might also be some inaccuracies on this post, I tested some of these a long time ago, and I never actually run the last 2.

[grapheneos]

> It doesn't solve the current issue

These operating systems aren't compatible with most of the apps and services people want to use. It's going to become much worse. The compatibility layers several provide have extremely poor compatibility combined with disabling the Android security model and app sandbox. Apps running in those compatibility layers are much less contained with less isolation from the Linux kernel, not more.

Aside from that, many people care about privacy and security. Each of those operating systems is far less private and drastically less secure than the Android Open Source Project. None has a truly complete and working app sandbox or permission model. None uses modern exploit protections. None has serious hardware-based encryption features needed to protect against data extraction. They're not serious alternatives to an iPhone from a privacy and security perspective as an AOSP-based OS on decent hardware can be.

> but in case we don't manage to push back on this

It's a warning that's being added to Google Mobile Services operating systems. It doesn't negatively impact other operating systems based on the Android Open Source Project.

> various actual linux OSes for mobile

Linux doesn't mean GNU/Linux or systemd/Linux. It doesn't at all imply using glibc, systemd, GNU coreutils, Bash, GNOME, etc. Distributions using different userspace components including several of the ones you've listed are still Linux Android-based operating systems including AOSP and GrapheneOS are Linux distributions. Alpine doesn't use glibc and SailfishOS has a lot of their own mix of open and closed source software. Using a typical desktop Linux userspace stack isn't what makes it Linux and there's also not a lot of consistency in what's used on desktops regardless. A Linux distribution not using musl, glibc, GNU coreutils, etc. is still Linux.

> There are many more linux mobile OSes, but as far as I know these are the main ones. There might also be some inaccuracies on this post, I tested some of these a long time ago, and I never actually run the last 2.

AOSP-based mobile operating systems are Linux distributions.

[qurren]

> These operating systems aren't compatible with most of the apps and services people want to use.

Exactly this.

If I can't run WeChat, Venmo, my brokerage app, WhatsApp, etc. it's a non-starter for me. I might as well not have a phone, because these apps are pretty much the only reason I carry around a phone.

[ipaddr]

"Apps running in those compatibility layers are much less contained with less isolation from the Linux kernel, not more."

Being isolated a little bit more from the kernal offers an illusion of privacy meanwhile where you are, what you have installed, your photos and friends are available to other apps at a much higher level. I understand being able to slow down a nation state actor is important but most privacy concerns for average people happen at the OS level not the kernel.

[HybridStatAnim8]

This claim is false. Isolation and protection from the kernel is vital and it is already targeted for exploitation, and will be targeted even more as time goes on. Properly updating the kernel and improving its isolation and security is the bare minimum for even below average users, not just for high threat models. The claims you are making are unsubstantiated.

[janvlug]

I'm using a Librem 5 as my daily phone. PureOS is actively developed and based on Debian. Monthly development updates are published here: https://puri.sm/posts/tag/advanced-readers/

Personally, I do not use Android apps on the Librem 5, but Waydroid is available in the PureOS repository. Waydroid is a container-based approach to boot a full Android system on regular GNU/Linux systems running Wayland based desktop environments (like PureOS).

PureOS also provides convergence via Phosh. Convergence means here that the same app can be used on a phone and on a big screen, the GUI adjusts to the available screen size.

Phosh aims to provide a daily-usable, robust and easy to use graphical user environment for mobile devices running mainline Linux. Phosh was originally initiated by developers from Purism for the Librem 5 phone but is nowadays used on many different devices covering smartphones, tablets and convertibles. It has even been seen on laptops.

[grapheneos]

> Waydroid is a container-based approach to boot a full Android system on regular GNU/Linux systems running Wayland based desktop environments (like PureOS).

No, it's only a partially working form of Android with the privacy/security model largely disabled and poor app compatibility. Waydroid is based on an ancient release of Android and disables the SELinux-based privacy/security model. It doesn't contain apps from each other and has far less protection for the Linux kernel from the apps. It has poor app compatibility and isn't a good approach to running Android in another OS. ChromeOS made a proper better Android container not losing the privacy/security model but migrated to using hardware accelerated virtual machines. It makes a lot more sense to use a VM since current era smartphone hardware fully supports it.

> PureOS also provides convergence via Phosh. Convergence means here that the same app can be used on a phone and on a big screen, the GUI adjusts to the available screen size.

Android Open Source Project has a desktop mode. It has a hardware-based virtualization layer for running desktop Linux applications too including GPU acceleration support.

> Phosh aims to provide a daily-usable, robust and easy to use graphical user environment for mobile devices running mainline Linux.

Android runs fine on mainline Linux. It doesn't require special kernels. That's tied to specific hardware rather than Android.

PureOS has far worse privacy and drastically worse security compared to iOS or AOSP. It's bringing the traditional atrocious privacy and security of desktops to mobile. Librem 5 also combines that with extraordinarily insecure hardware missing basic firmware updates and security protections. As a whole, these make it drastically easier to exploit devices. That includes going back to disk encryption which doesn't work for the average user due to them not using a strong passphrase and not protecting against data extraction with physical access unless the device is turned off.

[baranul]

The way out is for people to support the various Linux phones. These Linux distros need to support and push Android compatibility, so that people can load F-Droid, Aurora, and Obtainium on them and get most of the Android apps they want. The ability to use both Linux and Android apps should satisfy nearly everyone. A strong message of consumer defiance needs to be sent.

[HybridStatAnim8]

The Android family of operating systems and the forks made from the android open source project are all linux distributions, and linux phones.

Using desktop linux phones and trying to force that as a norm would set privacy and security back substantially.

The inverse of what you suggest, which is Android with desktop linux app compatibility, would be a huge step forward, and is already much closer than you might think.

Modern phones have substantially better VM support in the hardware than in previous models, and it is maturing at a very fast rate. We would be able to run linux VMs on Android, paired with desktop mode, with evidence for USB passthrough for an externel GPU in AOSP

There is also evidence that we will be able to put desktop linux app icons on the Android homescreen and using them in an app-like fashion.

This would use the more secure host to run the VM for the less secure OS.

[sambuccid]

Personally I think that Android AOSP relies too much on the support from google, that has demonstrated to happily use anti-competitive practices and not be afraid to close and centralise AOSP as much as possible.

In a possible future where google decides to continue any new update of Android as closed source, will the community have enough people stepping in to support the development of AOSP? Will google allow the Play Store to run on AOSP? If not, do we have enough apps distributed outside of the Play Store to compensate?

My point is that for an OS that shares more code with desktop Linux (same apps, same DE, same terminal programs, ...) we can rely on the existing Linux community to maintain and advance the OS, and then adapt it for mobile, which I think takes considerably less resources

[Gander5739]

The existing "linux phones" are much worse for general use than AOSP (putting aside that AOSP doesn't run on any device by itself and looking at projects like grapheneos and lineageos instead). If Google decided to fully close off Anddoid (which would presumably violate some licenses somewhere, though I'm not really familiar with the situation), then conceivably the existing AOSP would be a better starting point. In any case, people tend to complain that each new Android update brings fewer and fewer significant changes; maybe only security patches and driver updates would be needed.

[baranul]

The problem is that the usage of Android should not be at the expense of users and developers rights to choose, freedom, or privacy. With that line crossed, Android becomes an unattractive option.

With an increase in mobile Linux (e.g. Mobian and others), they can and will get better. Customers and developers choice and freedom are being nullified, because there are few other options. That has to change.

[HybridStatAnim8]

Android is not at the expense of either freedom or privacy. Desktop Linux OSs come at the cost of both. It would be better to direct effort to AOSP projects as it is a much better base to build from.

[ufocia]

How so? Please elaborate.

[hollow-moe]

And all are useless because you can't use your mandatory bank or gov id app.

[karussell]

Not useless. It is like the missing printer driver for Linux Desktop. It makes the experience ugly, but this is not the fault of the Linux OSes.

Also the bank should not require apps (instead they can offer hardware key support or desktop apps) and in fact some - at least in Germany - offer a different authentication possibility. Also the app for the German ID is published on fdroid and does not rely on Google services.

[trinix912]

Good for Germans then. Slovenian banks won't let you use physical 2FA authenticators (for personal accounts and maybe even business ones at this point) anymore and will also require you to constantly update their stupid app (I've had to replace some otherwise good phones because the OS version wasn't supported anymore).

[m-p-3]

Is that because of some regulatory requirements that they don't support physical 2FA?

[int_19h]

The question of how useful or not it is is orthogonal to whether it is the "fault" of Linux. Users who can't use it because something they need just doesn't work won't change their minds because the blame lies elsewhere.

[lbrito]

Probably not the case for most people. I'm living abroad and had to do something on the Brazilian e-gov platform. To log in I had to confirm my ID with an Android app. Not only is it exclusively on Play store, but it also refuses to install on any rooted device, so I had to boot an old non-rooted Android I had stored somewhere.

I'm confident this is a very common experience worldwide, be it with gov IDs or banks.

[fossman]

Are you saying the e-gov platform cannot be accessed using their website on a computer? So people without smartphones are excluded?

[lbrito]

Basically yes. Maybe you can access the "unprotected" version, which is basically useless as all the features necessitate an android/iphone device for 2fa.

[usr1106]

Recent headlines in Finland say that about 10% of the population are basically excluded from society with no access to important services.

[mr_mitm]

There are plenty of banks in Germany which offer over-the-counter services, if you prefer to do banking as if it's 1999. Most of the time, when people say it's impossible to live without a smartphone, it's actually only impossible to enjoy the conveniences of the internet without a smartphone (at least in Germany). Besides these rentable scooters, I can't think of anything that actually requires a smartphone. Sure, you'll miss out on a lot of conveniences, but I remember a time where that was the norm, so it's not like it's unreasonable.

[arximboldi]

I recently bought my first smartphone, just went for a refurbished Pixel 8 with GrapeheneOS.

To be honest, life without a smartphone was increasingly becoming a PITA.

For example, Ryanair doesn't accept printed tickets anymore.

A few clubs in Berlin (Tresor, Ohm, Oxi) have recently replaced their cloakroom by automated lockers that require a smartphone to operate.

I've encountered a few gyms (2 in Spain, 1 in USA) that use live-updated QR codes to enter the gym.

I did a project in the US and the client's office required a smartphone to open the door.

In Spain it's common since the pandemic to have restaurants that only offer the menu as QR code.

In fact, the pandemic was rough, as you had this system where you had to register with a QR code in most places. In many places they had a paper-registry that I could use, but often I would have to end up just using a friend's phone.

Plus all 4G dumbphones are crap compared to older 2G models. The few that exist are built really bad, designed for old people, lack features like T9. 2G is out already in great parts of the world.

To be honest, it saddens me deeply that the only way to live in society today involves carrying an internet-connected computer in your pocket. But it was just too much of burden... With GrapeheneOS the experience still feels somewhat acceptable and I get a somewhat similar feeling of control to what I get using NixOS on my laptop. But still...

[UnreachableCode]

https://dumbermini.com/ (LineageOS fork)

https://commodore.net/callback/ (Sailfish OS)

I too am a GrapheneOS Pixel 8 user. However, I am starting to realise even a screen this large is a huge source of distraction and dopamine fracking that I don't have the time or desire for in my life. So I'm looking at these even dumber options. I just want my calendar and email, and maybe Signal. No web browser or socials.

[arximboldi]

thank you! I'll definitely consider those.

one thing that helps me is using OLauncher as replacement from the system "shell" UI. it's on f-droid.

and the News Feed Eradicator browser extension. God's send.

and of course don't install Insta, X, Reddit, etc.

[przmk]

The comparison to 1999 is not entirely accurate. It doesn't take into account that most physical banking locations closed down. At least here in Belgium for example, you have to go far to find one, and it's often on appointment only.

[paweladamczuk]

To add to the sibling comment, you are also ignoring the fact that in 1999 nobody had those conveniences, everybody was on equal ground. In 2026, if you handicap yourself by rejecting those "conveniences", you will be met by friction at every step - lower productivity at work, impatient looks from your family members etc.

[usr1106]

I have a German bank sccount that can be used with a standalone code generator, that uses the chip on your bank card.

I have a Finnish bank account that use a completely standalone, purely time-based code generator.

Alternatives exist. But with current know your customer requirements it's increasingly difficult to open new ones if you are a foreigner and/or non-resident.

[queenkjuul]

And what if I'm someone that depends on the city bike rentals to live my life? I cannot use them without the official app.

Additionally, there are many sports and music venues where i live that require smartphone apps for ticketing.

Giving up my favorite forms of entertainment and transport isn't really reasonable imo

[queenkjuul]

No, a phone that cannot run the apps that are required for me to attend certain events is in fact useless to me. It's not the fault of Linux mobile vendors that their product is useless to me, but that doesn't change the fact that it is indeed useless

[nextos]

SailfishOS can run lots of banking apps with an Android emulation layer.

It's not perfect, but far from useless. Some use it as a daily driver.

Depending on your country, it can be super doable. There are also lots of indie native apps.

[tadfisher]

Does the F-Droid version of the app use hardware attestation?

[JeremyNT]

We're moving to a world where it makes sense to have one cheap locked down phone with the society mandated garbage apps on it, and another device that you use for real computing.

[wartywhoa23]

How about saying no to these "mandates"?

[bigstrat2003]

We aren't given the choice, in many cases. For example I remember a poster here who was forced to have an Android or Apple phone because his kids' school required an app to pick up the kids after school. So his options were to get a big tech phone, or get in trouble for not picking up his kids. "Get the school to come to their senses" was, unfortunately, not an option available to him.

[seba_dos1]

I've been using several GNU/Linux smartphones as my only phones for the past 18 years (with a short exception around 10 years ago when I carried an Android phone too as there was a gap on the market) so I can say from first-hand experience that it's really not such a big deal as everyone keeps painting it. For these kinds of odd needs where you have no hope to fight back you just launch Waydroid, use the app and stop the container afterwards. However, when you do fight back it often turns out that this "mandatory app" isn't actually so mandatory and in turn you contribute to making the world around you a bit better.

[wartywhoa23]

The question is should the sane minority jump from the roof in one of the allowed ways - headfirst or assfirst - only because the majority decided (or was duped into believing) it was convenient to do so, or better not partake in madness?

[JeremyNT]

Android is going to bifurcate between "phones that run proprietary apps from the play store" and "phones that run software from anywhere else." And while maybe you can get by without banking apps, your life is going to get increasingly harder when you want to do many other things.

Ride hail app? Transit fare app? Government ID app? Airline app? Maybe you don't need them yet, but the best way to model this future is to consider what you'd do if you didn't have a phone at all, and the amount of friction this will generate as the expectations are only entrenched and expanded.

I'm glad people are saying no. It's good to do it as long as we can. But the final outcome seems inevitable now and to me it feels very close.

[UnreachableCode]

No.

[mehmet_ensar]

I actually agree that the "two-phone future" makes sense, but I still wouldn't bet on it actually taking off on a large scale, because 95% (maybe even 99%) of people won't carry a second device just to preserve a freedom they don't really feel they're losing in their daily lives. Large corporations are able to make such radical decisions with ease precisely because of this inertia of the masses.

[alfiedotwtf]

Yes!

But as a Plan B, why aren’t we emulating Android on these devices (or is it the Secure Enclave that’s the spicy bit that these apps need)?

[hurutparittya]

Fortunately Google thought about this, so government ID and banking apps usually check that they are running on a sufficiently locked down and officially blessed phone through the Play Integrity API.

This makes emulation basically impossible.

[fossman]

If 'society' can mandate garbage on us, that is a bigger problem.

[codedokode]

In my country, partially due to sanctions, you can access the bank via browser and receive 2FA codes on $15 dumb phone. Also why do you need bank app on your phone? Do you like to give money to random strangers on the street? Only scammers need money urgently. Also it is not secure to use the phone as a single factor to access the bank.

I do not have any bank apps on my phone (it is not even connected to the Internet) and I have no problem.

[RussianCow]

> Also why do you need bank app on your phone?

Many banks gate features like mobile check deposit behind the native app. The nearest ATM is 20 minutes away from my house, so unfortunately I consider this feature essential.

[FractalParadigm]

How often are you still receiving physical cheques that mobile deposit is an essential feature? I could probably count on one hand the number of cheques I've deposited or written in the past ~15 years, nor can I say I've been so desperate to access said money that I feel the need to deposit the cheque within moments of receiving it.

[crysin]

Checks are still common in the good ole USA.

[jp191919]

Common? maybe for seniors. I probably handle a physical check once a year.

[RussianCow]

At least 3 times a month. I have a rental property and my tenant prefers to mail a check instead of paying extra to pay electronically. My spouse gets paid by check for dumb reasons I won't get into. I sometimes get dividends from my insurance company via check. And then several family members still prefer to use checks to pay each other back instead of Venmo or other electronic services.

I blame it on the fact that the US doesn't have a free electronic bank transfer system like the rest of the developed world.

[cft]

Carry a second cheap smartphone, like Pixel -a series or iPhone -SE. That one should be used for banking, government apps, for border inspections, etc. On your main GrapheneOS phone your financial app should be a Bitcoin wallet. The main phone should be off or in the BFU state when you are in a vulnerable situation.

[codedokode]

Interesting, I never saw a bank check. The companies typically transfer money directly into the account, and there are P2P transfers by a phone number working between any major banks. So I guess.. I do not need this feature.

[unbalancedevh]

Two cases when I've received a bank check without being able to choose an alternative: 1) as payment of proceeds in a class-action lawsuit; 2) when I got a refund from my insurance provider after changing the terms.

These might not be very common, but they're still not really rare in society either.

[carlosjobim]

Some banks require 2FA through their phone app to login to internet banking on the computer.

[fossman]

Yeah, all of them claim that... but I just walk into the bank and say I don't have an Android or Apple 'smart' phone, only a Linux pocket computer (Librem 5). So they could either buy me a duopoly smart phone, or let me log in via web browser with physical token or other MFA... or I take my money elsewhere.

I have several bank accounts in 2 different countries, and all of them backed down either gave me a hardware token or let me use the web app.

If an institution is holding your money hostage until you are forced to run their surveillance-tracker-infested malware on your personal device, that is a much bigger problem than what OS or device you choose.

That's why I understand the appeal of permission-less Open Source freedom money like Bitocin (BTC) and Monero (XMR).

[me551ah]

I can do everything on my bank app from prepaying small amounts of a loan, spend analysis, opening fixed deposits and such.

[codedokode]

I could do it all in a web browser on a laptop at home as well. Without annoying ads in notifications and without a risk to lose money if the phone gets backdoored.

[GoblinSlayer]

App can work as digital money without card reader, maybe even free, like bitcoin.

[RiverCrochet]

In a town nearby me (not really near me but within an hour's driving distance), sometimes I will see old people selling fresh fruit/vegetables in their front yard. They typically take cash, Cashapp, or Venmo. It's super convenient to be able to use Venmo in that situation. These are people I haven't met before.

[codedokode]

I usually pay with cash. As a nice bonus, cash works even if there are mobile Internet shutdowns or blackouts and they cannot block the cash in your wallet unlike a bank account.

[xorcist]

So, you live in a part of the world that still accepts cash. Good for you.

That part is shrinking however, so you need a plan to cope with that situation sooner or later. Not doing business with others and growing your own food does not suffice as a plan for most people.

[RegW]

I don't have a mandatory bank or gov id app. Where are you living?

[Grombobulous]

Apparently much of Europe is a strange banking dystopia.

Perhaps the antiquity of the US banking system is finally coming in handy. I’ve still got my checkbook ready to go!

[gpvos]

I'm still living in the Netherlands without a bank app. It's occasionally less convenient, but quite doable.

[seba_dos1]

I'm living in Poland and the only thing my bank's application gives me that its website doesn't are mobile TOTP-based payments - and even then it just works in Waydroid, so I can still use it on a GNU/Linux phone if I want to.

[LtWorf]

In sweden it's not "mandatory" in the sense that it's illegal not to have it. It's just really really complicated to live without.

Many services won't work at all.

[throwburn202605]

Might be worth trying to get your gov to pin down the number of users or process to get gov id supported on any new platform.

They likely wont specify 100k people or 10% of population or whatever email/petition but it at least records the requirement that other OSes exist and requires a process to support

[GreenVulpine]

Online banking is a thing. A heck of a lot more secure than an app on a certified android device passing play integrity but having last received security updates years ago and with a ton of privilege escalation exploits. Gov id? Just say no.

[janvlug]

I oppose appdwang (although that can be hard, but until now I managed). Learn more about appdwang at https://appdwang.nl/ (in Dutch).

[goldenarm]

I switched banks and made sure it doesn't require Android/iOS. Many banks propose FIDO2 + SMS, even bank of america does.

[dathinab]

I mean gov id app really doesn't matter (for now) you can just use you id card which is credit card sized. (For now has things might change wrt. age verification.)

But banking apps are a problem.

It's not even about the main online banking (you can use a web portal) or storing a EC digitally in you phone (convenient but really unneeded).

The problem is dump, misguided 2FA apps. E.g. credit card 2FA which already mostly required Android/iOS to work or even online banking login 2FA, transaction 2FA etc. with same requirement.

Currently for the later I can still use other methods but for a huge amount of Banks where I live you can't use a credit card (reliably) without Android or iOS as "carrier" for an 2FA app.

[axus]

I don't use bank or gov id apps, why are these mandatory? Country-specific?

[mrsssnake]

Weird definition of useless.

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

This bogus "justification" for not considering any alternative, non-corporate mobile OS on any phone makes no sense

HN commenters will not let it go

Most HN readers have multiple computers, including multiple phones

There is no requirement that one has to run a closed-source banking or government ID app on the same phone as open-source apps, e.g., apps from F-Droid

And it ignores countless people who do not and will never use banking or government ID apps

I tested a banking app for depositing a paper cheque and it was incredibly convenient. At the same time, the app tried to make a plain, unencrypted HTTP connection to www.google.com

I blocked these connection attempts and the app still worked, with plenty of phoney error warnings. I would not be comfortable leaving one of these apps installed on a phone that's charged, powered on and has a cinnection to the internet

Every user is different but it makes no sense to argue on HN of all places that these closed-source banking apps are essential for everyone. Many HN users are never going to use these apps, and rightfully so

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"Smartphones" are not general purpose computers

If a bank or government requires use of a "smartphone app" then this does not mean this smartphone must be used for any other purpose(s)

Nothing forces someone to install the app on every smartphone they own

These required apps do not prevent anyone with multiple smartphones from using alternative OS, i.e., not Android or iOS, on some of them

[stronglikedan]

Except they're not useless because a lot of people aren't mandated to use any such apps. (And I feel sorry for those that are.)

[maxloh]

Usability-wise, they are no match for Android and iOS—or even versions of them from five years ago.

UI/UX is costly, and most FOSS projects cannot get it right without massive investments from enterprises (e.g., Red Hat's UX designers heavily contributed to GNOME) or startups (e.g., Zed, Element, Bluesky).

Projects without that backing are mostly unusable, at least from a Gen Z perspective.

[grapheneos]

> Usability-wise, they are no match for Android and iOS—or even versions of them from five years ago.

They're also no match for the privacy or security of iOS or AOSP. They're bringing the lack of privacy/security model and protections on desktop operating systems and hardware to mobile. It's a massive regression for privacy and security despite being marketed in the opposite way.

[forshaper]

Biggest problem is banking, rideshare, airlines, various other service provider apps- for example, if a cell phone service requires a particular app, etc. It's not as much of a problem in the United States (besides banking), but I've noticed that in Singapore, for example, all sorts of things are tied to mobile apps.

[sambuccid]

I agree that the usability is behind, as we would expect. For me mainly is about missing apps and some hardware support. But in terms of UX for example I liked using SailfishOS, although I'll admit the UI needs some getting used to.

But I prefer this to the feeling that I'm being limited on what I can do on Android/Apple, and the worry of being in a duopoly that allows the companies to worsen their products without ever fearing competition(as far as they do it in small chunks).

[musictubes]

Aren't you much more limited by not having access to the vast majority of apps built for Android and iOS? The limitations imposed by Apple and Google have led to thriving software systems. Being free to hack as you want on the system won't help most people if they don't have access to the software people want.

[sambuccid]

Yes that's true, that's the main limitation for me at the moment, and I hope with more people using it and with time we'll get enough apps, like what happened for Linux on desktop. Meanwhile to compensate on Linux mobile we have access to many programs from desktop Linux - not adapted for mobile screen, and many people use Android emulation - which should work very well on official SailfishOS but has limitations on other distros. If I recall correctly I think it might also be possible to have a dual boot Android/Linux for some devices.

Personally I have them separate, an Android phone and a Linux phone. Sadly the Android one is still my main driver, mainly because I chose a not-fully-ready distribution like PureOS on a Librem5, and the battery duration is still too limited for me.

Regarding the thriving software systems of Apple and Google, I think is more due to the popularity of mobile phones than to specific limitations they made on their OSes. I think even on a very open OS, as far as there is a good "famous" framework for development, you can gain the same amount of software.

[thayne]

> Red Hat's UX designers heavily contributed to GNOME

Well, IMHO Gnome has worse UX than other linux environments like KDE, Niri witn Dank Materials Shell, etc. That is obviously a matter of opinion, but I don't think you necessarily need a large budget to get decent UX for an open source project.

[munk-a]

Usability-wise it's hard to make too general statements - for me the killer app on mobile is the ability to independently adjust app volumes which is unavailable on mainline Android/iOS (it is supported by a few vendor branches like Samsung's, though)

[bigyabai]

FWIW, I use my smartphone as an MP3 player, SMS messenger and TOTP auth. iOS and Android did that fine 5 years ago, I don't need Instagram or 8 Ball Pool to survive in life.

[queenkjuul]

Sadly several of my favorite sports and music venues require an app for ticketing

[armadyl]

All of which have beyond horrific security. GrapheneOS is the only acceptable alternative from mainstream Android.

[nativeit]

Don’t they have standard Linux security? Does my phone need to be more secure than my production web server?

[grapheneos]

There isn't a standard Linux distribution. Those operating systems have drastically worse security than a decent server distribution or the mainstream mobile Linux. Traditional Linux distributions don't have a standard set of core components or configuration so system administrators are assembling their own OS and the differences in security are vast. It's extremely rare to deploy anything close to the level of iOS and AOSP security but it's an entirely different environment on a server. Running a few server applications in weak sandboxes is far different than using a bunch of apps including an enormously complex web browser with a GPU, cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, NFC, etc. There's also no serious attempt by almost anyone to defend Linux servers and desktops against physical attacks with the disk encryption only even attempting to provide protection for data before the encryption passphrase is entered, not after.

Those ports of desktop Linux to mobile don't have a proper privacy/security model for running applications. They don't have anything close to modern exploit protections or hardware-based security features crucial to protect against increasingly sophisticated and widespread exploits. AOSP is a Linux distribution with drastically improved privacy and security compared to a traditional desktop Linux traditional. GrapheneOS starts from there and improves privacy and security much further.

[einpoklum]

> Traditional Linux distributions don't have a standard set of core components or configuration

Huh? Of course they do. A standard set of components and configuration is at the core of (most) OS distributions.

[grapheneos]

System administrators of a traditional Linux distribution assemble their own OS out of their package and configuration choices. There isn't a well defined standard base OS. That's part of what makes it the traditional approach and is inherently incompatible with the privacy and security approach of AOSP or iOS in many ways.

Linux distributions use different implementations of init systems, shells, command-line tools and nearly everything else. Ubuntu uses glibc, systemd and Rust uutils coreutils. Alpine uses OpenRC, Musl and BusyBox as the defaults. Debian uses glibc, systemd and GNU coreutils as the defaults but supports other choices of init system. Each has their own variants of the projects they each package with different versions, patches compile-time configuration and default runtime configuration.

Using systemd, Bash, etc. on an OS Debian is a choice for the system administrator rather than the OS being defined that way. Even if people swap out major components for ones which aren't officially supported, it's not generally regarded as not using the distribution anymore. It's a far different approach than defining a standard base OS, developing that together as a whole with user installed packages and configuration changes are solely on top of that.

The higher up you go in the software stack, the more different things are across operating systems. The Debian installations across different machines are a vastly different OS with far different components and configuration. There are default sets of packages and configurations but not a standard base OS shared across each machine. Swapping out components and changing the configuration isn't making it not Debian and is pretty much required.

A huge portion of server Linux uses musl and BusyBox due to Alpine.

Embedded Linux has always heavily used different software stacks. Android wasn't much different in that regard on mobile. Android runs fine on standard Linux kernels without any mandatory downstream changes. It was never the only distribution making changes to the kernel regardless.

[einpoklum]

Ah, I see, you mean an exclusive standard set of packages and its singular corresponding configuration.

[HybridStatAnim8]

Linux security is quite bad. Android tries to improve this and GrapheneOS improves it even farther than that.

Which device you need to be more secure depends on your needs and which device you put sensitive data on, but a mobile device is going to provide far better privacy and security than any desktop hardware or OS is currently capable of.

[gpvos]

It's a pity DivestOS has stopped.

[hypfer]

There's also FuriOS with the FuriPhone.

That's debian based with gnome and seems to be built by capable people. Also, it can run android apps.

[mghackerlady]

I really wish SailfishOS supported more hardware. I love sony phones, but the sony phone I love the most isn't supported despite being nearly identical to a supported one

[dgellow]

I miss my N900, meego/maemo was really interesting, it's sad that it just went nowhere :(

[einpoklum]

Which phones are supported by which of these operating systems? And can you provide some relevant links?

[sambuccid]

- https://sailfishos.org - https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices

They have few devices of their own (new one coming out this October) and they officially support many Sony Xperia devices. There are also many community ports.

- https://ubuntu-touch.io - https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io

They have 33 supported devices, some are being shipped directly with the OS or have an official agreement with the phone maker, while others are community ports. Even if community ports, they all seem to have high hardware support, and is all very clearly documented.

- https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 / https://pureos.net

They focus just on the Librem 5, and not everything is fully working but as I said they prioritised privacy and FOSS. The phone is old but the OS is still in active development.

- https://postmarketos.org - https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

They focus on supporting as many devices as possible, currently they don't have "main" devices they support, but they plan to. They too have a very clear documentation on features available for each device.

- https://mobian.org - https://wiki.debian.org/Mobian/Devices

They target devices made with the intent of running linux, but also have a few ports to android devices.

---

You'll notice that there are a few devices that are more "linux-friendly" and that are supported by many of these OSes. Phones from Pinephone and Fairphone being the main ones.

[grapheneos]

> prioritised privacy

Privacy depends on privacy patches/protections and on security patches/protections. They do the opposite of taking it seriously from the hardware through the software.

None has anything close to the privacy or security of AOSP or iOS. Librem 5 is the direct opposite of hardware prioritizing privacy and security. It doesn't provide basic firmware updates, uses a bunch of extremely low security components and brings the awful privacy and security of a desktop OS to mobile on top of that. It's the opposite of how you're describing it. Purism's devices also aren't open source as they claim but rather are closed source hardware with closed source firmware. They only pretend it's open hardware and firmware by not shipping the closed source firmware with the OS, which leaves users without crucial privacy/security protections. The components don't have proper updates available regardless due to their hardware choices but they don't ship what is available and prevented doing it for some components.

> They target devices made with the intent of running linux, but also have a few ports to android devices.

AOSP is a Linux distribution. Linux doesn't mean glibc, systemd, GNU coreutils and GNOME. If you mean GNU/Linux or bringing systemd to mobile then that's what you should say.

[microtonal]

I think this is all a bit optimistic. E.g. when I last looked a the Sony phones supported by SailfishOS, there was only one old model that had reasonable support. Newer phones would boot, but missed support for many hardware features.

E.g., on the XPERIA 10 IV, the camera and mic doesn't work, which makes it hard to use as a phone:

https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/functional-state-of-the-xperi...

[einpoklum]

So, I upvoted you, but I have to say that most of these seem to target old devices, released 6 or 8 years ago or more, which have long stopped being sold (and may not even be easy to get second-hand).

[sambuccid]

Yes most of the devices are old, but I think there are some main ones still being sold.

I bought a Librem 5 a few months ago, so I'm sure on that one.

The Fairphone 5 is around 3 years old, it doesn't seem to be listed in the official store, but they are big on reusing so I think there should be at least a few second-hand ones being sold(I found some on ebay, and some on their forum). I can also see it listed for sale on amazon uk.

The pinephone is another one very old, they seem to have the "basic edition" still avaliable, but it might be slow.

I also noticed SailfishOS is taking pre-orders for a new phone that will be released in october.

But I must admit a lot of the ones I listed might be too expensive if we consider how old they are