[scotty79]

Basically Europe needs to become best friends with China and buy all the solar panels and all the electronics they are willing to spare. But the ineffective incumbent European industries throw rocks into those gears. Even though EU consumers are delighted with what China has to offer.

I think political landscape could use consumer focused political parties. Screw the business, screw the rent-seekers, rights-holders and estate-holders. Best deal for the consumer is king. Europe is first and foremost a market. And our politics should represent that.

[alephnerd]

> Basically Europe needs to become best friends with China...

China has embargoed rare earth exports to the EU [0] as well as enforcing sanctions against the EU's domestic drone and UAV industry [1]. China is also training Russian soldiers on drone tactics to be used in Ukraine [2][3] as well as continuing to back Russia's position on Ukraine [4].

If Europe wishes to be "friends" with China, it means giving Russia primacy within Europe by giving up Ukraine, as well as completely giving up on European domestic industry.

This is obviously unacceptable for most eastern EU member states.

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/eu-firms-brace-more-shut...

[1] - https://www.scmp.com/economy/global-economy/article/3351292/...

[2] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-...

[3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-ap...

[4] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/putin-says-russia-china-...

[scotty79]

> If Europe wishes to be "friends" with China, it means giving Russia primacy within Europe by giving up Ukraine, as well as completely giving up on European domestic industry.

Absolutely not. China is not a friend of russia. It's just convenient for them to prolong the time that russia bleeds out. The best way of achieving this is not letting russia to lose to fast. Any kind of russian success does not serve China in any capacity.

Europe could offer China a lot to tip the balance.

[alephnerd]

> Europe could offer China a lot to tip the balance

> Any kind of russian success does not serve China in any capacity

That's not what the Chinese policymakers think [0][1].

They view the EU as a has-been that thinks it's a global power but lacks the technology or capability to become one [2].

On the other hand, Russia helps China put pressure on Japan [3], South Korea [4], Central Asia [5], backchannel with India [6], allows China to bypass Hormuz [7], and is transferring military IP to China [8].

Even China's foreign minister Wang Yi told Kaja Kallas this point blank [9] and even the Polish policymaking space recognizes this [10].

[0] - https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.ht...

[1] - https://ies.cass.cn/cn/work/comment/202206/t20220601_5410899...

[2] - https://www.ccpit.org/france/a/20260623/20260623vb86.html

[3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russian-b...

[4] - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq38028djo

[5] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china-looks-strengthen-ties-ru...

[6] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2020/10/23/how-russia-emerged-as-k...

[7] - https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3345920/m...

[8] - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/comme...

[9] - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/ch...

[10] - https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2025-01-...

[scotty79]

> They view the EU as a has-been that thinks it's a global power but lacks the technology or capability to become one

Which is spot on. That's why Europe should do everything in their power to facilitate technology sharing.

[alephnerd]

And China is not interested in doing so with European states let alone other countries.

Heck, the PRC just passed legislation that all technology transfers outside of China need final approval from the central government [0].

And as I pointed out above but you ignored, China does not view the EU as an equal nor as a potential partner. They just like the US are more interested in bilateral relations with individual states that are pliable to them instead of the supranational EU.

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/china-toughens-ru...

[scotty79]

China is super interested in spreading their influence using market means. They'd happily set up shop in Europe. And when the shop is set up in a foreign land the technology spreads naturally as US learned with China.

[joe_mamba]

What you're saying is EU can't be friends with the US because of Trump but is still dependent on the US, it can't be friends with Russia because of Ukraine, and it can't be friends with China but is still dependent on it.

How is the EU not completely boned in this case, being stuck between countries it doesn't like but is forced to do business with and has no leverage do do anything about it as is completely dependent on trade with them.

[dzhiurgis]

> Best deal for the consumer is king

Except best deal for consumer is subsidized (aka dumping) by CCP until local competition is destroyed. Next year solar and batteries are going to have price hikes because China finally stopped export subsidies.

But then perhaps if you believe Peter Thiels "Competition is for suckers" thesis then enabling monopoly focus on cost rather than competition is best for everyone.

[dv_dt]

Dumping is the word used for some other nations effective industrial development policy

[Chu4eeno]

No, it literally is dumping.

E. g. Chinese EV makers were selling at a loss (even with subsidies) until very recently this year and are struggling immensely now.

[dv_dt]

Are current AI offerings from companies in the US considered dumping?

[scotty79]

Chinese EV makers are selling at a loss to Chinese people as well. It's not a cunning strategy to destroy EU industry. It's capitalistic competition driven to absurd levels. In the west it rarely ever happens anymore because governments are in the pockets of the business, but in China, companies really do compete between themselves to the death.

If you want to see a glimpse of this, look on youtube for materials on Chinese EV scooter rental business market.

European people could massively benefit from this Chinese competition. European business can't offer consumer similar deals because it's inefficient due to business-protectionist policies of Western governments. Instead of treating it as an impulse to step up, they provide more protectionism while the European consumers are not getting the value they could making Europe altogether poorer and less technologically advanced than it could be.

I can understand US fearmongering because they are in the process of losing the lead permanently and it shatters their entire national identity. But Europeans singing the same song is just silly. When someone is more advanced than you and offers you superior value for cheap you should buy all you can and learn all you can.

[titanomachy]

Referring to humanity as "consumers" is gross.

[scotty79]

Really?

Referring to someone as the "consumer" is talking about the part of their life where they exert their economic power to fulfill their and their dependents needs and desires.

When you say "worker" you are talking about the time when they sell their life away and suspend their freedoms to get resources to stay alive. So basically when they are at their lowest. It should feel way more offensive to you and the fact it doesn't says a lot about how the culture was shaped to benefit who it benefits.

[titanomachy]

I also wouldn't reduce a human to a "worker".

Perhaps your relationship with the world is that you reluctantly labour so that you have money which you can exchange for the things that you want. Many people relate to the world this way, but not all of them.

The most joyful moments of my life are things like hiking with friends, or good conversation, or spending time with family, not purchasing commercial goods. And conversely, my work often gives me opportunities to help people, which I find fulfilling. If I didn't need the money (and I don't, probably) then I would still spend at least some of my time doing something work-like.

The economic lens is only one (incomplete) way of viewing human activity. Don't get so attached to that lens that you diminish your view of yourself, and your own potential.

[scotty79]

> I also wouldn't reduce a human to a "worker".

Yet, it's done routinely in public communication and portrayed as something noble.

> Many people relate to the world this way, but not all of them.

So? Is the distinction even economically relevant? The fact that you hate or love your chains has no bearing for the slavemaster.

> The most joyful moments of my life are things like hiking with friends, or good conversation, or spending time with family, not purchasing commercial goods.

That's great. I never said that being a consumer is joyful or the whole picture of human existence. Only that that's where the poor people are most economically powerful and that this should politically embraced, promoted and protected.

> The economic lens is only one (incomplete) way of viewing human activity.

Sure, but we were talking about economy and associated politics.

[titanomachy]

I don’t think I have a slavemaster. I work with friends on a project which helps people and makes us enough money to live off of. Maybe the capitalists who funded our project are the slavemasters, in your worldview? Maybe I am the slavemaster, since I have a share in the company?

[scotty79]

Perhaps you are not representative?

> Maybe the capitalists who funded our project are the slavemasters, in your worldview?

Not literal of course. Just filling the role of.

[KetoManx64]

So an anarcho-capitalist society?

[scotty79]

Absolutely not. Strict pro-consumer regulations, tightly following technological advancements, balancing consumer choice with consumer safety, with complete disregard for any capitalistic interests.

[inglor_cz]

It may be necessary in some situation.

If you look at current Ukraine, its drone sector is basically anarcho-capitalist. Little to no regulation, people do what they want with extremely short OODA loops. It also works in the sense that is stopped Muscovy in its tracks and Ukraine became the worldwide hub of innovation when it comes to military robots, even though it only has maybe 25 million people left in its territory, and economy the size of Nebraska.

Much richer and safer countries to the west of it just cannot keep pace and resort to licensing Ukrainian designs for their own production. Including the US.