[moontear]

So what’s a better form than the current capitalistic (?) model? Surely we would say the market is efficient, but at the same time it can’t be good for society that so much capital is localized with a few people (bezos, musk etc.).

If the roots for capitalism or similar market economies are so old, what would be better for society?

[Terr_]

> the current capitalistic (?) model? Surely we would say the market is efficient

I'd like to highlight a a fundamental contradiction between "free[ly moving] markets" versus "free [to do what you want] markets."

1. The mathematically efficient market involves perfect information and restrictions on what you can do. No secret prices, no hidden NDA'ed transactions, no hidden ownership for straw-trades, etc.

2. The do-what-you-want market does allow you to "freely" do those things, but it isn't the efficient kind because of all the chicanery.

I often see an equivocation going on, where people use the features of #1 to promote what is actually #2.

[microgpt]

This is also the contradiction between "free markets" (which has always meant markets that move freely, with low friction, and has never meant you were free to add friction to the market) and "capitalism" (which is a system where much of society is controlled by whoever has the most capital).

[Terr_]

Yep, hence "Capitalists Hate Capitalism" [0], and if we want to keep the core thing (as opposed to Manoralism or Feudalism in a mask) the participants can't be allowed to destroy it with monopolies, monopsonies, and regulatory-capture.

[0] https://locusmag.com/feature/cory-doctorow-capitalists-hate-...

[microgpt]

But if capitalists can't have unlimited power then is it really capitalism? Capitalism is defined by capitalists having most of the power in a society.

[Terr_]

I think if you proceed in that "unlimited power" direction, what happens is you land inside regions for which we already have other--much older--words (Manoralist, Feudal, Monarchy, Despotic, etc.)

[imtringued]

The interesting part about saying the market is efficient is that currently, the market is headed for optimal extinction.

The better model has always been to treat money as a zero net worth system that cannot be used to carry value into the future at no cost because such an idea inherently contradicts the biological reality that human societies and their economies are built upon.

The consequences of using money as a "store of value" are so predictable and inevitable that I'm honestly tired of explaining it over and over again.

If you can carry money into the future but not the real physical equivalent it is the representative of, then the difference is a loss that is not yet reflected in the state of money. Your decision making will be suboptimal as a direct consequence.

This isn't something that can be swept under the rug or hand waved away.

It's no different than rust eating itself through your car. If you ignore the damage when it is small, the repair will be more expensive later on.

Meanwhile the economic model says, it is impossible for the condition of the car to get worse through a mere passage of time as that violates the idea of pure time preference theory and the idea of interest being a reward for abstaining from consumption. All of these are purely ideological wishful thinking. They basically claim that everything must get better through the passage of time and that rust doesn't exist.

Consider a society where rusting as a phenomenon was illegal to express. You would be allowed to talk about holes in the chassis but not be allowed to invent a primer or clear coat that effectively prevents rust since rust as a problem does not officially exist. Your attempt to avoid rust through economic expenditures would be considered value destruction, because it is inefficient use of resources.

[SturgeonsLaw]

Isn't depreciation the financial system's way of acknowledging that physical things deteriorate over time?

[arter45]

Not just that. Inflation and purchasing power are other concepts describing price and the "value" of your money over time.

[MVQ93]

This is sadly a very ignorant and shallow comment. There's just so much literature that you seem to be unaware of. For starters, copy-paste your reply and ask an LLM about the Euler equation, or to find weak spots in your reasoning.

[arter45]

>Meanwhile the economic model says, it is impossible for the condition of the car to get worse through a mere passage of time

Source?

[squidbeak]

> but at the same time it can’t be good for society that so much capital is localized with a few people (bezos, musk etc.).

Besides the tendency to absolute oligarchy, there's the small matter of wholesale resource consumption and planet trashing.