[user_7832]

> China aren't offering a cheaper solution. They are subsidizing an existing one (which is already subsidized) in order to gain foothold.

In my economics classes, we were told that (in a "free market" argument) the best thing to do if a subsidy is making something you want cheaper is to use it. You're getting your thing, and at a reduced cost.

(I'm not really replying to you per se, I'm curious how "free market" folks in these comments would respond to this.)

[dosisking]

Most everything they teach in economics class is wrong. You would be better off ignoring everything they teach you.

[dgellow]

Could you elaborate?

[nutjob2]

This is why I don't understand why people complain about impractically cheap Chinese solar panels. The rest of the world should buy enormous quantities and bankrupt the mofos and hugely benefit along the way. Then later they can set up their own solar panel industries.

[westpfelia]

Because they arent selling at a loss. The business pipeline is subsidized by the state. But end to end from mining the minerals to shipping you the solar panel everything is "in house". Its all in China. Thats why why can sell so cheap. Its even cheaper to make.

This narative that the CCP is just subsidizing all business to "beat america" is just dumb. Its the build process being made cheaper by the government. Not the final product.

[mcmcmc]

Let’s not act like the US government isn’t subsidizing AI either with massive contracts. Anthropic is selling subscriptions at a loss; reselling tokens is just arbitrage.

[WarmWash]

The US government subsidizes US AI labs via incentives.

The CCP is the Chinese AI labs.

I am not aware of any US government AI labs (besides perhaps a small spattering of national lab research or the like)

There is very large difference that your either need to be poorly informed or purposely driving an agenda to miss.

[mcmcmc]

I’m sad for you that propaganda has destroyed your critical thinking ability. Qwen is an Alibaba product, Deepseek is from a private Chinese hedge fund. Those are not the CCP. The Chinese economy has vastly evolved in the last decades. The CCP doesn’t have any more special control over the Chinese labs than the US has over our labs. The White House can do whatever it wants to keep labs in line. Fable just got pulled because the US gov ordered Anthropic not to give access to any foreign nationals, including Anthropic employees.

[WarmWash]

Please, show me one Chinese court ruling against the CCP and I will believe you. Anthropic can go to court and have the order overturned if it isn't legal (with legality being born from elected representatives), it happens all the time.

Just because Xi Jinping lets companies play mock "private businesses", does not mean there actually is private business. At the end of the day, the CCP still has final say in everything, and Xi has final say in the party. There is no constitution (in the US judges swear to the constitution, in China they swear to the party), and there is no balance of powers.

It's just one guy, running experiments the way he see's fit.

You mentioned propaganda, take heed.

[eru]

As far as I can tell, the Chinese government itself is complaining about 'oversupply' in the solar panel market. Ie it doesn't sound like they are subsidising it anymore.

[benjiro29]

The Chinese government has stopped direct subsidizing solar panels years ago. I think it was around 2019? This resulted in a lot of companies going under at the time.

It did not stop solar panels getting cheaper and cheaper because of the whole integration and mass production (with healthy free market competition).

The last subsidies like export value-added tax rebates for solar panels and lower rebates for batteries are ending in 2027.

China their main power is, the ability to have everything inhouse. Yea, they subsidize a lot of stuff until it hits critical mass, and then you have often a healthy industry with lots of competition.

China alone has like a few 100 car manufactures because of the subsidies, and over time there will be consolidation / buyouts etc but the end result is a healthy new industry that exports. With again, everything internally being produced.

This is why our subsidies fail. We do one sector, often a few companies at best. This results in few competitors, expensive prices, and often reliance on externals that can bankrupt those companies. And que how we wasted again dozens of billions in propping up a industry with no competitive edge.

People can cry about China but they are actually doing work, despite the mass amount of corruption. That is the big difference with here... Mass corruption got in the way of national security, plop, people go to jail. Industry quickly gets their ** together. Here ... give billions, and the money vanishes, with no real consequences.

[eru]

Mostly agreed. You can crack a whole lot of eggs without making an omelette.

Though I suspect China would do even better, if they didn't bother with the subsidies. Just like Japan would have done better without MITI.

[nutjob2]

Selling at a loss isn't required.

Local governments are over-funding numerous producers (though cheap loans and other subsidies and incentives) creating excess competition. This is an ongoing problem and is a huge misallocation of capital. Increasing demand just drives this process harder and puts downward pressure on margins. As soon as they try raising prices, or just through satisfying total demand, demand collapses and they (almost) all go out of business.

The Chinese model has weaknesses, we should be exploiting them.

[diegolas]

the fact that you think an organization that pulled 300 million people out of poverty in 20 years with strategic planning and a controlled economy has this not covered is mind blowing. they killed the made in USA slogan in less than 40 years. they'll be fine.

[nutjob2]

The fact that you think that past performance dictates future competence is mind blowing. What I described is the hard reality of the Chinese economy right now. Go read about it if you don't believe me.

There are a bunch of forces that drive the Chinese economy, and right now growth is slowing sharply. Their dictatorship and semi-planned economy will ultimately be their undoing.

[handle584]

The textbook poverty which are created by such organization itself with strategic planning and a controlled economy in the first place, killing ~30 million. All the more impressive it only took them under 10 years.

[diegolas]

30 million dead 60 years ago vs 800 million out of poverty in the last 40...