[jameshilliard]

> There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design.

About 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab so Palestinian integration into a state with a Jewish majority can work to a degree. The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work(i.e. basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries).

[n4r9]

This webpage has a pretty good rundown on the status of Arab Israelis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/what-know-about-arab-citiz...

An example of implicit discrimination is Israel's ban on family unification with Palestinian spouses: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/511

[throw3784377]

The linked article is also blaming socioeconomic differences on Israel. But by many metrics Israeli Arabs are doing better than Arabs in other Arab countries. E.g. life expectancy for Israeli Arabs is higher than the Arab average, and higher than Jordan or Egypt.

Similarly for income. While Israeli Arabs on average earn 65% that of Jewish Israelis at $2,400 vs $3,750, the average income in Jordan is $865, and Egypt $235.

But differences in socioeconomic status between groups exist in every country.

[n4r9]

The question is whether Israel treats its Arab citizens fairly. Not whether they fare better in Israel than other countries by some metrics.

[throw3784377]

If you’re going to look at differences between groups, you can’t apply causality and accusation unless you account for other factors.

[throw3784377]

Now do Jews in Muslim countries. Or in areas under control of the PA.

[n4r9]

Imagine you're a parent explaining to a kid why it's not right to punch other kids. Do you accept "but they punch other kids too" as an excuse?

[throw3784377]

Imagine a parent introducing some special rules to protect a kid that’s being punched, like having them sit at the front, and the bullies start crying why they can’t sit in the front.

[n4r9]

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is nothing like a teacher sitting some kids at the front.

[throw3784377]

You choosing to zoom in and crop the picture shows a level of disingenuity likely due to ulterior bias.

The area under control of the PA is ethnically cleansed from Jews, with an ongoing apartheid where, for example, selling property to Jews is punishable by death, and they have government issued bounties for the killing of Jews.

So Israel has restricted marriage visas from that location. The law still applies to every Israeli equally - Jews also cannot bring in people from that area on a marriage visa.

[throw310822]

The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.

> The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work

This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.

> basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries

Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. In many cases it was actually better. The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.

[jameshilliard]

> you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.

AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate.

> This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side.

I'm not justifying actual wrongs, however Israel giving citizenship to all individuals who claim to be Palestinians is unlikely to result in a good outcome.

> In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.

Just look at Palestinian opinion polling and it will become clear why giving citizenship to all Palestinians would likely result in a civil war.

> Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries.

Jews lived as second class citizens in Muslim majority countries.

> In many cases it was actually better.

That's not really saying much.

> The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.

Yet there are far more Jews living in Europe today than there are Jews living in MENA countries(excluding Israel). Maybe Europeans largely learned that their past behavior was wrong while those in MENA countries largely did not.

[goldfishgold]

Palestinians in Israel are not permitted to convert to Judaism, so no there is no path to assimilate and join the majority. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-requ...

[jameshilliard]

> Palestinians in Israel are not permitted to convert to Judaism, so no there is no path to assimilate and join the majority.

This whole area of Israeli law AFAIU is rather confusing, keep in mind even many Jews are not recognized fully either due to Orthodox standards sometimes being applied, although there have been some more recent changes there I think.[0]

In practice though Palestinian/Arab Israelis probably can convert to Judaism in some form and since they would already be citizens the conversion from my understanding would not make much difference in practice for the legal status. Note that there are different congregations that have different conversion rules and there are also differences in how the Israeli government recognizes conversions for purposes of citizenship.

Palestinians living in the territories that are not Israeli citizens would have much more difficulty converting simply because it would be effectively impossible to covert within say the PA controlled parts of the Palestinian territories(since Jews are generally not allowed into those territories and I don't think conversions are typically allowed to be done remotely).

Between Israeli citizens AFAIU the only form of legal discrimination is arguably applied against non-Arab Israeli citizens(i.e. Jews, Druze) since they have required military service while Arab Israeli's do not. Arab Israeli's can of course still volunteer for military service so being classified legally as an Arab Israeli doesn't really have legal downsides from my understanding.

[0] https://jweekly.com/2021/03/01/israeli-supreme-court-rules-s...