[boring_twenties]

This shouldn't be hard to understand. Don't talk to the police, without your attorney present, under any circumstances whatsoever.

Dating the police is just such an astoundingly egregious violation of this principle that I can only wonder what, if anything, those people are thinking.

Anyway, the key takeaway seems to don't date anyone who dates the police. Firstly, because it directly puts your own safety at risk, as this article exemplifies. Secondly, because it demonstrates terrible judgment; it seems reasonable to assume they are likely to make other terrible decisions in the future.

[ultrarunner]

> Dating the police is just such an astoundingly egregious violation of this principle

There are still quite a few people who think the police are the friendly government-provided customer service agents of life, although I've watched this viewpoint decline markedly over the last twenty years at least.

Locally, a woman went on a hiking date with a Phoenix cop and wound up dead [0]. Notably, the woman was from New England, while the cop was local and absolutely should have known better how dangerous conditions would be. The police, of course, investigated themselves and found they did nothing wrong.

[0] https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/hiker-recalls-seeing-woman...

[kakacik]

A female high on meth gets disoriented and dies from heat exposure in the mountains. As per article she willingly separated from the guy whom she sent to the top of the peak "to continue to get pic for social media". He probably should have know better and just go down with her and call it a day, or not getting high on meth in dangerous environment in the first place but thats about it.

Unless you have a better article on that, that really ain't evidence of anything.

[close04]

A trained police officer leaves his obviously high (police can always tell even on first contact and from far away, right?) and exhausted hiking partner to return alone, with no water, in blazing heat, on an unfamiliar trail, to eventually die alone.

Peak police.

[ultrarunner]

She had low levels of amphetamines in her blood, consistent with her Adderall prescription. The only one bringing up meth is you. The guy was on the Brady list and the department never investigated his involvement.

Regardless, the point is that cops are very rarely models of good decision making or representatives of safety anymore. They shouldn't have access to blanket surveillance.

[0] https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/autopsy-rel...

[Hikikomori]

Meth and amphetamine are very different drugs, but a bootlicker wouldn't know the difference. She could also have been spiked and left to die by the cop, can't really know without a proper investigation, which the police never subject themselves to.

[dev_hugepages]

They are different drugs in the sense that methamphetamine will cause more serotonin release and will act longer than amphetamine, but they will both cause increase in blood pressure, increase heart rate and increase internal temperature. The rest of your comment is right though.

[Hikikomori]

Meth and amphetamine also have very different connotations.

[trehalose]

Connotations are by far the biggest difference between these two substances.

[mapotofu]

Her source of trust was instagram. The cop’s instagram led her to travel to Arizona and be with him. She was convinced by his instagram that she agreed to do all of this. That’s really dumb and it’s what you get playing stupid games with strangers on the internet.

[Hikikomori]

What is this nonsense. Instagram isn't an entity like that, she talked to a cop over a messaging service.

[sixothree]

Says the person using social media.

[mlrtime]

IDK, In my town that is what they are, they come when called, they are respectful, they live in the town they service.

I only see problems with police [generally speaking] in two scenarios.

1) Very large cities like NYC where police don't [cannot afford] to live in the area they work in.

2) Very small citie where the mayor, judge and sherrif are all related.

[mock-possum]

That sounds great for you, but the point is: what if they were not inclined to do those things?

What if they didn’t come when called? What if they weren’t respectful? What if they weren’t a part of your community?

What recourse do you have against cops?

[mlrtime]

It's great for me because I choose where I live. If they don't come I have a gun.

[qmr]

If I pivot to law enforcement does my wife have to stop talking to me?

She's a permanent resident and has already been given the do not talk to the police speech and role play practice from me.

[goda90]

Best hope you don't catch the eye of an officer even. Things can go poorly without a relationship, or even without a direct rejection.

[lukan]

"Don't talk to the police, without your attorney present, under any circumstances whatsoever."

Oh but I did. Multiple times, without a lawyer ever, how shocking:

"Hey, my bicycle was stolen, I need to file it so I get insurance payout"

"Hey, this demonstration and the roadblock of yours for guarding it, will it be around for much longer?"

"Hey, nice weather, isn't it?"

(Misdirecting small talk, while they were searching for drugs on the road to a festival, but then didn't really check me)

"Yes I know I have to have a light with a bicycle, but the battery went out and it was a emergency now to go anyway"

(Did not had to pay a fine)

And countless other examples like this.

Also more serious ones.

"Yes, it was those neonazis who beat up my friend"

So .. I never cared much for this online advice, but then again I also don't live in the US. Maybe there they shoot and arrest anyone approaching them on general principle?

Well in my world, that was actually shaped a lot by anarchistic anti establishment people, I found that one can talk to cops as inhuman cops, then they will act like one, or you talk to them as humans and might be surprised that they reply as humans.

That doesn't mean, that there ain't lots of assholes on a power trip in uniforms, but the "never talk to them advice" assumes they all are. And this is just wrong and act as a self fullfilling prophecy.

[ceejayoz]

> I also don't live in the US

“Don’t talk to the cops” is not global advice. In some countries it harms your defense in court. In others it gets you beaten.

Most times you hear it it’s an American talking to Americans.

[lukan]

"some countries it harms your defense in court. "

In all countries it harms your defence if you confess something wrong. But itnis not a general rule that it always hurts.

[ceejayoz]

I'm referring to things like the UK's right to remain silent, where the Miranda-style warning is:

> You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Basically, your alibi is considered much less credible if your first mention of it is at trial.

[xigoi]

> “Don’t talk to the cops” is not global advice.

I’ve seen the advice several times on HN (a global site) and it never claimed to be USA-only.

[xboxnolifes]

And when people say "the government" on HN they arent usually talking about every government or even a world government. Frequently, its a specific government. The US one.

[ceejayoz]

You'll find HN is very frequently US-centric, yes.

[throwawayqqq11]

In all your cases, you wanted something from LE. The advice to stay shut is mainly for the other way around.

[lukan]

Internet experts, also here on HN, tried to convince me otherwise.

Also no, in the drug search example I just wanted to be left alone (and not have them find the small bag of weed). So I answered, but talked about harmless things.

[FatherOfCurses]

The key statement here is "I don't live in the US"

I grew up outside of the US and immigrated here in 1995. US police are on a completely different level.

[joquarky]

> but then again I also don't live in the US

You could have said that up front and we would immediately know to skip the rest, as the advice is founded on the behavior of police in the US.

[boring_twenties]

> but the "never talk to them advice" assumes they all are

No, it doesn't, that's absurd. Does wearing a seatbelt assume that you're going to crash every single time you drive?

[tptacek]

This is an extremely online belief. Oak Park, IL, the inner-ring suburb of Chicago where I live, is almost certainly one of the 10 most progressive and left-leaning municipalities in the country. Oak Parkers (not me) have the opposite concern: we're below our threshold number of sworn officers, and desperate to add more. The median Oak Parker has very positive views of the police (and also all the standard progressive concerns about abuses.)

Lots of political beliefs are like this! There are plenty of things people believe very strongly, and get near universal reinforcement on in their communities, that don't survive contact with actual living grass. The median American has an extraordinarily high opinion of Amazon, for instance, something you'd never know unless you sought out polling (or, you know, took a walk down a residential block and looked at the stoops.)

[duld]

To clarify, you're stating that "Don't talk to the police" is an "extremely online belief"? Or were you referencing the dating portion of the comment?

[tptacek]

Correct: "never talk to the police" is a very online belief. I watch people talk to police all the time. People go out of their way to do it.

I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.

[watwut]

> I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.

They have also unusually high domestic violence rates. That is where the bit comes from.

[tptacek]

So do firefighters.

[watwut]

This is first time I have seen the claim that firefighters have the same domestic violence rates as police. I have seen multiple studies on police vs regular citizens and police were more violent in all of them. I did not seen comparable numbers about firefighters.

The factors police have and firemen dont are a.) victim not being able to go to police, cause those are his buddies b.) training teaches cops to take and keep charge (escalating aggression until compliance is acquired).

[joquarky]

This site attracts ivory tower residents. Your comment is a great example of this.

Try growing up poor and see how your perspective changes on the police.

[fzeroracer]

Saying never talk to the police is an 'online belief' is frankly baffling.

There are multiple examples of prominent law professors bringing in ex-police professionals who all say the exact same thing: never talk to the police. If you spend five minutes around a lawyer they will say the same thing. If you ever end up finding yourself in legal turmoil it is the very first thing a lawyer will directly advise you to do.

People being stupid I don't think suddenly makes this advice terminally online. I was hearing it, in person, when I was in college over a decade ago.

[tptacek]

Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. If you are in such a contest, those videos you've watched are quite useful and important. But when there's a hit and run on your block, expect your neighbors to go out of their way to volunteer information to the police.

I've read threads here where people have made impassioned arguments that you yourself should never volunteer information to the police investigating a crime such as a hit and run. The police will turn it against you and somehow make you the target of their investigation! Ordinary people out in the world do not think that way, and you will not succeed in making them think that way by showing them videos of lawyers explaining why the only thing you should ever say is "I do not consent to any searches and will not answer any of your questions".

If you said that to a police officer doing a canvass in my neighborhood, people would look at you like a space alien.

I think it's helpful to understand all this stuff when reading things about Flock. People on HN and in activist communities seem gobsmacked that all the Flock cameras haven't been taken down yet (in fact: ALPR deployments are growing, not shrinking). But they have wildly different priors about policing than the median resident of a muni with ALPR cameras.

[watwut]

> Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police.

Yes, that is why they don't do it. It does not mean the advice is "terminally online". It is the advice coming from layers that deal with the system.

Layers saying those things, online and offline, are not terminally online.

[Teever]

Surely there's more interesting conversation to be had here than just "your opinions about interacting with law enforcement are moot because I know people in my Chicago neighbourhood who disagree with them."

[lukan]

Multiple? I only ever see that one guy's video linked.

[BrenBarn]

The fact that most people believe it's not good advice doesn't mean it actually is not good advice.

[tptacek]

I'm not making a normative claim about what your best strategy is to protect yourself from a police investigation, but rather a positive claim about ordinary people's attitudes towards the police, which are not (gesturing towards this thread) this.

[Retric]

Meanwhile I’ve spent way too much time around people in real life on both sides of the isle that absolutely loathed the police.

The general attitude seems extremely positively correlated with income, and the average American isn’t particularly well off.

[BrenBarn]

Okay, but "never talk to the police" is a normative statement, not a descriptive statement, so your contrast of it with a people's attitudes towards police is kind of apples and oranges.

[joxdosba]

>I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.

This is a deeply masculine take, Zuck would be proud.

This is such a widely known problem, I’m really surprised you’re not familiar with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer-involved_domestic_viol...

“Never date a cop” is very common advice women will give to each other, has nothing to do with politics or being excessively online.

[M95D]

Don't talk to the police - advice given to university students by a lawyer and then by a cop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

If this isn't trustworthy, I don't know what is.

[qmr]

Isn't his follow up "be extremely careful when talking to the police"? He gave a follow up lecture some years later.

[M95D]

I didn't see that. Link?

[xigoi]

If all cops are evil, why would you take advice from a cop?

[joquarky]

Because reality doesn't work like board game rules.

[boring_twenties]

No one said or implied that "all" cops are evil, or anything remotely close to that.

[rexpop]

Everything you believe about the police you gleaned from children's cartoons as a toddler.

[tptacek]

Sick burn.

[Eufrat]

Oak Park. Home to Frank Lloyd Wright’s original studio/home and multiple works designed by him? Birthplace and hometown of Ernest Hemingway?

A municipality comparable to Berkeley, California or New Rochelle, New York?

What?

I agree with you that a blanket statement of not talking to the police is ridiculous, but arguing that Oak Park is a good representation outside of affluent America is not to be taken seriously.

[tptacek]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Berkeley is more affluent than Oak Park, and (by a little bit) so is New Rochelle.

[kstenerud]

Wow. I've heard some pretty egregious victim blaming before, but this really takes the cake.