[GJim]

Stupidly dangerous and (in my country) illegal.

Please retract your comment and don't encourage such stupidity.

EDIT: Since this is being misinterpreted... Earplugs that deaden sound are fine and encouraged on a motorbike, playing music in your ears is what masks other sound and is both stupid and illegal.

[infecto]

Really depends on how they are being worn. If they are on without any sound being played its fine. Ear plugs are highly encouraged while riding a motorcycle and after a decade plus of riding I have never thought ear plugs along with a headset prevented me from hearing whats going on around me.

Maybe it is your own misinterpretation as the parent never said they were playing music on them. You might not realize just how loud the wind noise is on a bike, you are not exactly hearing your surroundings music or not. Most if not all of your awareness on a motorcycle is coming from your eyes not ears, so hard to really say its stupid.

[esperent]

There's just a tiny step from wearing noise canceling earphones with no music playing, to pressing a button and blaring Bat out of Hell while you speed down the mountainside.

In any case, it's irrelevant - as far as I know, wearing headphones or earphones while driving a motorcycle is illegal whether or not you happen to be playing music in them, because how would anyone else know? If you get in an accident and get charged with distracted driving, that's on you. If you want earplugs, just wear them. They're much cheaper and more effective than sound cancelling headphones if you genuinely just want to block noise.

[infecto]

Not sure what your trying to a argue but it simply depends on the local laws but from a safety perspective I cannot think of many opportunities the sound would save you as it’s already loud enough from wind noise alone. I ride with a comm system that I play media over and trying to be reflective of my past and I don’t see it. Not really advocating one way or the other like yourself, I don’t have that strong of a feeling about that law but from purely a safety aspect I don’t fully agree with the opinion. If you don’t want to wear ear protection just don’t wear it. It’s your ears.

[throw0101c]

> I ride with a comm system that I play media over and trying to be reflective of my past and I don’t see it.

One risk is your focus going from what's on the road to what's coming into your ears.

This may have some useful mental aspects if you're doing a long-distance drudgery ride down Route 66 with nothing much happening in between pitstops, but it's another thing on I-5 or I-95 with all sorts of chaotic lane changes going on.

[infecto]

Visual awareness is much more important for safety than sound especially once your at speed. Distracted driving is completely different and can happen anywhere. We should be arguing that cars should not have any speakers if that’s the case.

[throw0101c]

> We should be arguing that cars should not have any speakers if that’s the case.

Even speaking with passengers has been shown to increase traffic incidents:

* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13698...

* https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3141/1899-15

* https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

It's a debate spectrum / sliding scale on how society wants to go, but at the very least one should be aware of the risk factors and be mindful of where your attention is.

[patcon]

> I cannot think of many opportunities the sound would save you as it’s already loud enough from wind noise alone

I am a bit stunned reading this.. Is this a common perspective of motorcyclists?

[infecto]

What is the stunning part? It’s not so much a perspective but pretty common safety advice, visual awareness is much more important than sound while operating a motorcycle. I suspect the gap is from folks who have only driven a car so there can be a sense of shock.

Like all things it does depend on where you ride and the general driving culture. In America that’s how I ride but in Vietnam it’s very different. Road rules are not as often followed and honking is common to make yourself known, usually while there I wear lower db reduction ear protection.

I am also not saying that there is zero opportunity to hear a horn but already on a motorcycle you have to have so much more awareness that I don’t find that sounds are all that helpful. It absolutely applies to driving a car too, after driving a motorcycle for a while I am as shocked as you just how unaware drivers are of their surroundings.

Keep in mind at around 35mph you can easily hit 85-90db from the wind. I do think ear protection actually helps identifying sounds but I still argue the hearing part is not that helpful.

I am not trying to say you have to follow my methods but folks calling for criminal punishment and shaming are a bit too far as the safety benefit from hearing is quite minimal depending on the driving culture.

[patcon]

Thanks! I've learned something from the generous comments. Really appreciate the effort to educate me and give me a chance to understand without jumping on me :)

[throw0101c]

> I am a bit stunned reading this.. Is this a common perspective of motorcyclists?

No.

For example, every beginner-advice thread in /r/motorcycle has a highly-upvoted comment(s) recommending ear protection, including many folks stating they wish they had started using it earlier.

And even if it is conceded that sound may not save you from other vehicles, ear pro(tection) reduces the health risk of hearing loss that would effect other aspects of your life.

[patcon]

Thanks! I've learned something from the generous comments

[jaapz]

Have you sat on a mktorcycle? The motor and air noise drowns out pretty much everything else anyway - I ride with good earplugs because I don't want to become (more) deaf.

When you learn to ride a motorcycle you learn to look - look behind you when changing lanes, look in your mirrors, basically stay aware of whatever is happening at all times by looking. Because you're sure as hell not hearing a lot.

[patcon]

Thanks! I've learned something from the generous comments

[Zak]

At highway speeds, the wind is loud. The engine is often loud even with a factory exhaust. The only audible signal that's likely to matter is a car horn, and those are loud enough to hear over music at reasonable volume.

Cars are quieter, and hearing other vehicles is more likely. If anyone shouldn't listen to music, it's car drivers, not motorcyclists.

[patcon]

Thanks! I've learned something from the generous comments

[t-3]

Deaf people manage to get licenses with no problem. My hearing was never tested to get my license, unlike my eyesight.

[timcobb]

Deaf people have a lifetime of training (hopefully) and experience dealing with things like this in ways the are appropriate for their situation

[culturestate]

> Deaf people have a lifetime of training (hopefully) and experience

Not every deaf person is born that way, mate.

[yonaguska]

Since the advent of EVs, its not a safety issue imo. When Tesla's first came out, and the first adopters were all people that wanted to drive FAST, I was often surprised by them, especially since I always rode slightly faster than traffic as a safety mitigation technique. I quickly learned to use my eyes more.

My eyes are my ears and you cannot rely on sound to know who or what might be coming up from behind you. Mirrors and head on a swivel are way more important.

[SenHeng]

It’s been a thing since the Prius allowed driving with the engine off with parents complaining that the Prius is a silent killer of kids because they couldn’t hear them coming.

[al_borland]

Now, with the noises EVs have to make below a certain speed, they are louder than ICE cars. One person on my street has an electric Chevy, maybe a Cadillac, and it’s the only vehicle I can always hear from inside the house. It’s drives me insane.

I hoped electric cars would make for quieter cities, but instead they seem to make them worse, imo. All due to this noise making requirement. Then, at higher speeds, tire noise overtakes engine noise at a certain point, so the drivetrain becomes a moot point.

[Broken_Hippo]

My earbuds have a setting to allow for outside noises. Wearing them while walking, I often hear cars and other people well before I see them. Even with louder music, I still hear them. I can hold a conversation with people without taking them out. I don't wear them without music, though, because my own breathing is also louder and irritating.

If I have the noise cancelling turned on, it would be downright unsafe.

While it is likely illegal in many places, it isn't everywhere and the safety risk depends on what sort of equipment you have.

[psp99]

It is not illegal in every country. Further, wind noise and exhaust are too loud to hear anything anyway, so having music on and navigation is a bonus.

[esperent]

That's completely untrue, speaking as someone who drives a motorcycle every day, at least if you're not driving some horrible (to everyone around you) 500cc beast, you can hear things just fine. Especially horns, trucks, busses etc.

[infecto]

Speaking as someone who has raced, commuted and has run multiple iron butts. Only really true at low speeds and if you are not wearing ear protection (which is a choice). Once earpro is in and you are going a decent speed there is really not much to be heard. Have never found hearing to save me from situations. If someone is honking that I am in danger I am probably already in it.

Absolutely your choice not to wear hearing protection though. Eventually you will get naturally immune to it.

[esperent]

> If someone is honking that I am in danger I am probably already in it.

This is an incredibly dumb and dangerous attitude to hold and you need to rethink things if you've become so overconfident in your driving because you've raced or done "iron butts", whatever those are. Driving on real roads isn't like racing and you need to separate your attitudes and driving styles in each situation before your arrogance causes an accident. Remember that it's not just your life on the line but the other innocent people around you too.

[infecto]

No need to take that kind of tone. It’s condescending when you have not even defended your position beyond talking down to me.

As I said elsewhere, it depends on driving culture and where you are located in the world. It’s not a hard and fast rule. In America sound serves little safety though I can still hear car horns generally speaking with earpro on. In Vietnam because of the culture, organized chaos and usage of horns I will usually opt for low db ear protection. Semis will absolutely honk and run you over there. Since you consider a 500cc a beast I can generally pinpoint your location and understandable why you think like you do.

In both situations though, most of your safety is still from strong visual awareness.

[nehal3m]

You’re failing the shibboleths though. You don’t drive a motorcycle, you ride one. A 500cc bike is low mid range, not a beast. You can’t hear rolling or engine noise of cars, trucks or busses over 50kph if you’re wearing a helmet.

Further, sound deadened cars with the stereo on an appreciable level also aren’t conducive to perceiving what’s around you.

Speaking as someone who commuted on 600 twins and 300 singles for years, if you’re wearing hearing protection and listening to some tunes and navigation hints you’re fine. Just ride defensively like you should, and make sure you’re not over doing it on the volume.

[carlosjobim]

Have you driven a 500cc? Modern supersport and adventure bikes have very quiet exhausts. Any loud exhaust you hear on your commute is usually somebody who put an aftermarket muffler on their 125cc bike.

[keernan]

When I got my motorcycle license, state training was required. The thing they drilled into our heads - over and over - is: loud bikes save lives.

[somehnguy]

I wear earplugs and play music via Cardo while riding nearly every single day. It's fine.

Let's be realistic - noise cancelling isn't a perfect technology. I rode with my AirPods for a short period of time and could still hear everything I needed to. The only reason I switched is because they're uncomfortable in a helmet.

[stasomatic]

Is using headphones on a bike with music on or not somehow different from driving in a Lexus with music on or not?

[Enginerrrd]

Yeah, it’s definitely higher risk.

When riding a motorcycle, you’ll encounter people that don’t see you almost every trip. The same is not true in a car.

Riding a bike is just a 100% engagement thing with higher risks and lower margins for error, for all kinds of reasons. And it’s not just traffic, minor pavement imperfections become relevant, the necessary skill floor is also higher. It just demands more attention, straight up.

In a car, you shouldn’t, and it’s not without risk, but you CAN occasionally get away with minor distractions: adjusting the radio, seat, etc. That just doesn’t work on a bike as well. I’m failing to properly articulate the why, but it really is fundamentally different in some ways. I’ve spent many years doing both, and the bike just demands more of your attention resources, independent of your vulnerability in the event of an accident.

[stasomatic]

I’ve been over handlebars a couple of times. The last time was riding a bicycle no faster than 10 mph, I hit some loose sand, the rear wheel swerved and I panicked. My MIPS saved my scull but I still looked beat up 2 weeks later, cheeks, chest, shoulders .

This is to say - I am aware of the dangers:) My state doesn’t even have a helmet law for motorcyclists.

[Zambyte]

Driving a car is a higher net risk than riding a motorcycle. The problem is that drivers externalize much more of the risk. People die riding motorcycles all the time - way more than people driving cars. But you know what people driving cars do? Blow holes into buildings. Smash cars. Kill pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, and other drivers.

A motorcycle demands your attention because the risk is mostly on the rider. Drivers are pacified by how externalized their very existent risk is.

[9dev]

Noise cancellation headphones that will block out loud things or ambulances approaching you, sitting exposed on a motor strapped to two wheels at a high speed? Yes. That is different from driving in a Lexus.

[wlonkly]

They don't block out loud things or ambulances approaching you. They block out constant loud background noise. This is why they're good for airplanes, lawn mowers, motorcycles and being out in public, and not good for shooting or as industrial hearing protection.

As I mentioned in another comment, on an airplane, my airpods in ANC mode make it easier for me to hear announcements.

[stasomatic]

I drive a car and ride a bicycle and an e-bike in Miami. The ANC isn’t that magical, I hear plenty of out of the algorithm noises (ambulances, etc). Head on a swivel and look straight.

[wlonkly]

+1, but add a motorcycle to that list too. Not Miami, but a large city, and now a smaller city.

All the assertions I'm seeing in this thread are bizarre to me. One can easily hear a siren over noise cancellation and over wind noise, and it's even easier to hear if you have noise cancellation for that wind noise.

As a related example, when I'm on an airplane and I have noise-cancelling headphones on, the pilot announcements are easier to hear than without them.

[multjoy]

The ambulance with the bright flashing lights? ANC doesn't dim your eyes. This is absolute nonsense.

[9dev]

Sure, if you keep the eyes in the back of your head peeled, you’ll be fine

[mylifeandtimes]

well, one comes with a pretty strong safety cage, so there is that difference.

[multjoy]

No it isn't. Presumably you're trying to ban radios in cars as well?

[GJim]

£50 to a spat out smartie says you've never ridden a motorbike in your life, let alone in city traffic.

[multjoy]

Lol, I've held a bike licence for over a decade, riding in the busiest cities in the UK.

[nedt]

If that's illegal than cars with closed windows would be illegal too. Even more so if they have the radio on. As a cyclist I keep having issues with car drivers not hearing anything happening outside of their vehicle (not a bell, not yelling, not a bicycle hooter). That's like wearing headphones or earplugs and still is considered normal. I'd love if everyone would be required to drive a cabrio.

[Gareth321]

Agreed. The people who complain about earphones while riding/driving/cycling are older and grew up in an era where they had advertisements on television warning people not to do that. The actual risk is fairly minimal. As you point out: modern cars are designed to be super quiet. Just use some common sense.

[otherme123]

Cars are much more safe in a crash (surrounded with a steel frame, airbags, safety belt...) and also safer while driving (better mirrors, bigger and easier to see).

I use the bike, and I know for a fact that almost any crash with a car means me in a coffin. I need all my senses at 100%, can't afford the luxury of listening to music or wear shorts for example.

[nedt]

Cars are only safer in a crash if you are inside the car. They are a big problem for anyone they crash into. That's why it's so very important that you see and hear everything happening around you. Why should the once with more mass and speed have the luxury of listening to music?

[sda2]

hence the term ‘cager’ - once you experience the phenomena from a bicycle or motorcycle it becomes obvious.

[SoftTalker]

It's been decades since I've ridden motorcyles but as I recall the helmet usually had foam padding over the ears and that was adequate for wind and noise reduction.

[port11]

At least in Germany I think wearing headphones in ANY vehicle is against the law, even a bicycle, and even if you’re not listening to music (IANAL).

[arrrg]

That’s wrong. Wearing headphones is not banned. Isolating yourself to a degree where you cannot hear warning signals (emergency vehicles, car horns) is (10 € fine), though that’s not the same as being able to hear all traffic sounds (which would be non-sensical, given that cars are and have been for a very long time quite sound isolating. Horns and emergency vehicles are two of the only things that really get through.)

In practice this means that police won’t do anything about people wearing headphones. Wearing them is totally fine. However, if you get into an accident you might get a larger part of the blame if it’s determined that you not hearing so well contributed to the accident. (The rules of the road do have a general clause that you need to pay sufficient attention – so anything distracting might get you to shoulder more of a blame in case of an accident, even if it isn’t explicitly banned. Use common sense …)

As I said, cars are inherently quite isolating, so car-centric maniacs better try not to legislate my right to wear headphones while riding the bike aways while they sit in their sound dampened boxes, casually overtaking me with too little distance.

(I strongly suggest to never turn on noise isolation while riding the human powered kind of bike and I also recommend either turning on the pass-through mode or just putting in the earphone on the side away from the road.)

[port11]

I stand corrected! I was stopped once by police on my bicycle and asked to not wear headphones (wired, Apple’s basic ones).

I’m also somewhat shocked the fine is that minor. Not hearing a honk or bicycle bell can be quite dangerous.