[tomaytotomato]

A lot of the comments on here are a bit unfair on what is great work being done and even more awesome work (JEPs) in the pipeline for the future.

If Java was a child, imagine it being brought up by loving parents for the first few years (Sun) then it was thrown in a garage with some other children and neglected by its evil guardian (Oracle)

Neglected and unloved till JDK 8, its basically been playing catch up.

So when people say "oh so its now got structs or value types of X", yes it has but that's because it has been stunted in its development due to big bureaucratic and hostile corporate processes, but its free now and is getting love through the OpenJDK family.

I will continue to enjoy writing once and deploying anywhere!

[gf000]

> If Java was a child, imagine it being brought up by loving parents for the first few years (Sun) then it was thrown in a garage with some other children and neglected by its evil guardian (Oracle)

Whether you like oracle or not, this is simply not a correct description of Java's history. It was brought up by loving parents, who due to financial problems had to put Java into a foster home where she was neglected.

But later it was adopted by new, loving parents (Oracle) and she bloomed and become a healthy and stable adult.

Like, it was Oracle that completed the open-sourcing of the platform, making OpenJDK the reference implementation. They also open-sourced the previously proprietary jfr, mission control etc tools.

They also managed to keep many of the original members of the language team, which is quite rare during these acquisitions, and Java has seen a huge improvement both on the language and runtime front.

[cogman10]

Yup. I was around for and skeptical of the Oracle purchase of Sun. I was worried about what it would mean for Java.

The Java team has been delivering nice language and environment improvements regularly since Java 10.

[bdamm]

Well, Oracle may have done fine, but IIRC open sourcing the JDK was Sun's very penultimate move on its deathbed. Oracle inherited the license to the trademark, but the actual JDK was already free.

[homebrewer]

It was neglected during its last few years at Sun. Oracle started moving it forward at never before seen pace, while mostly maintaining backward compatibility (unlike .NET that "did things right from the start", which is what .NET Framework/.NET Core/.NET split/rewrite is according to some in this very discussion. And .NET had Java to copy and learn from, but still fucked up.)

Same with MySQL, btw. "Dead" according to this site, risen from the dead under Oracle for those who actually know it.

[pron]

I have no idea about MySQL, but what I always remind people is that HN is more GQ/Vogue than the NYT. It focuses on novelty and aspiration more than on coverage of what the industry is actually doing. Like others, I enjoy it because it's aspirational/inspirational, but I try not to confuse it with a reflection of reality. E.g. there's little correlation between programming languages that are discussed a lot on HN and those that achieve (or don't achieve) big and long-lasting success.

In fact, much of the software industry, which writes the software that matters to our lives the most and holds most of the value delivered by software in general - the software that processes your credit-card transactions, runs your bank, sorts your mail, routes your phone calls, manages the manufacturing of your car and the shipping of your packages, holds your healthcare information, schedules and tracks your flights, and manages your law enforcement and your government - is barely represented here because the organisations that write most software aren't software companies, and they don't tend to publish technical blogs.

[geokon]

Where do you find more nuanced discussions?

[pron]

I don't think the issue is nuance. The issue is what people enjoy talking about. E.g. here's what the industry probably looks like in terms of how many people work in different languages: https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog... Now compare that to the languages most frequently talked about on HN. The stuff on HN isn't a reflection of the industry, just like Silicon Valley doesn't produce most of the world's software (or most of the world's software value).

People come to HN because they want to hear or talk about things that most people don't usually do; it's more interesting because it's different! I'm not saying they always say positive things, but positive or negative, this is what we like talking about online. This is why people buy GQ or Vogue. If you want to talk about boring work stuff, talk to people at work :)

[geokon]

Ah okay. That's a good insight! and something to keep in mind. There is a reality distortion lens to it all in the end. As you say, people want to explore the frontier of technology

[int_19h]

Ironically the worst parts of .NET today are the things it copied from Java and now can't get rid because of backwards compatibility (stuff like covariant yet mutable arrays, for example).

[pron]

> If Java was a child, imagine it being brought up by loving parents for the first few years (Sun) then it was thrown in a garage with some other children and neglected by its evil guardian (Oracle).

> Neglected and unloved till JDK 8, its basically been playing catch up.

These two statements are contradictory. The last Java version under Sun was in 2006. Oracle bought Sun in 2010. JDK 7 came out in 2011 and JDK 8 in 2014.

The team largely remained the same, and the main difference was that Oracle ended the neglect and funded us more, which is why Java picked up the pace after the acquisition.

> its basically been playing catch up.

Catch up with who or what? There are only two languages in the world as popular as Java or more: JS/TS, and Python. People who are saying Java is "playing catch up" usually compare it to languages that are doing far, far worse than Java. It's just that people who like certain features think that the language that has them is doing poorly despite them and not because of them. Many times I see people insist that other languages are "doing it right" (or better than Java) even though it is clear that the people who say this are in the minority when it comes to preferred features.

> So when people say "oh so its now got structs or value types of X", yes it has but that's because it has been stunted in its development due to big bureaucratic and hostile corporate processes, but its free now and is getting love through the OpenJDK family.

If anything, the opposite is the case. Managers love to see things ship quickly. It is our technical leadership - all people who were there in the Sun days - who insist we have to move deliberately and carefully and get things right. You can agree or disagree with the decisions, but comparing Java unfavourably to languages that are doing far worse is unconvincing.

Rather, what I think the vibe is because Java is not as popular as it was in, say, 2003. And it certainly isn't. But guess what? No other language is, either, because that time was anomalous not only for Java, but for the entire software ecosystem, which had never been as consolidated and unfragmented before or since.

[oaiey]

Yeah. I agree. As a C# fan I discovered one day the change process and release notes. Like C# it does still have strong momentum in the language design space. It was a joy observing the last 10 releases.

[wffurr]

>> I will continue to enjoy writing once and deploying anywhere!

Except to the browser, iOS, embedded systems...

WebAssembly is the real write once deploy anywhere tech now. JVM had its turn and lost.

[cenamus]

Embedded systems? Like sim cards? There's even real time Java, I think they used it for some missile guidance stuff aswell at some point

[pjmlp]

Yes, Aonix, nowadays belongs to PTC, still in business.

[tennfown]

> Embedded systems? Like sim cards?

Serious question: I remember the old installer, six billion devices or whatever. I’ve heard about Java ME, old set-top boxes and DVD players, etc.

But how much of that is active today. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a job listing for an embedded Java developer or even Java ME in my entire career. Are people actually still using it?

[bdamm]

Actually yes. Pretty much most credit cards are in fact JavaCards.

Weird but true, and quite obscure.

[cenamus]

Yeah I didn't mean it as praise for Java (SE, ME, or whatever), but I don't think you're better off finding embedded WebAssembly jobs

[wffurr]

https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasm-micro-runtime https://github.com/WebAssembly/wabt/blob/main/wasm2c/README....

ISTR Siemens uses wasm2c to compile Wasm for a bunch of embedded devices runninng Zephyr RTOS.

[cenamus]

Fair point, but translating to C is almost cheating ;)

[jmyeet]

To take your analogy further, not only was it thrown in the garage, but it was used to sue for billions of dollars in child support (Google) so really it had just become a cash grab.

Anyway, I wouldn't even call Java "stunted". It made choices, some reasonable, some not, and those are incredibly hard to fix later. Heck, just look at C++. Semi-compatibility with C is (IMHO) an unfixable 150 foot albatross around its neck and so many versions from C++11 onwards have simply been about making that 150 foot albatross more bearable.

I personally think treating all value classes as a single L-type in the JVM (like primitive types, basically) is a fairly neat solution to a difficult problem. But all this comes down to the original Java 2 decision to implement generics as type erasure to maintain backwards-compatibility, something that C3 NOPEd out of as a result.