[UltraSane]

> I think it's valid to use the word the way that Israel's present leadership is using it.

And how is that?

Israel has a population of 10 million people and a very modern military and nuclear weapons. If it's existence was ever truly threatened things would get VERY ugly.

[frollogaston]

Because that's what matters. The original Zionists aren't alive to ask what they think. Self-proclaimed Zionists are taking the West Bank and Gaza. In fact they've been kinda doing it for decades under previous governments, but more slowly. If there's some other kind of Zionism around, the most it's doing is complaining, and it's been outvoted.

I have doubts about their ability to self-defend because otherwise we wouldn't be giving so much money, the situation would be stable. Even if they can severely hurt the attackers, it doesn't really matter if the attackers stop at nothing. We just lost a war against Iran despite having full air superiority and killing their leader. And especially if you're considering the scenario where Israel never got Western support, and thus never got those advanced weapons.

[UltraSane]

Israel actually LEFT Gaza. You seem biased to the point of just plain lying.

[frollogaston]

West Bank and Gaza are different situations. West Bank settlements have been popping up continuously. Settlers were in Gaza until they exited in 2005, but now that Israel's military occupies it again, Zionists believe it should be resettled. Sorry for CNN link, but it has direct quotes https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-g... To be clear they haven't done it yet, aside from some illegal (by Israeli law) attempts, but they're trying.

It's pretty obvious from the emotional response that you've got some kind of horse in the Israel-Hamas war that I don't, which is fine, but I'm not gonna get called a liar too. So bye.

[UltraSane]

  My only emotion is exhaustion at hearing the same lies told over and over.

[tovej]

They did not. They're still occupying a buffer zone, have broken the ceasefire countless times, and are blocking people from crossing.

Israel razed Gaza to the ground. It was a genocide.

[tmule]

Don’t wrestle with pigs or argue with Zionists about Israel (though the former will at least avoid accusing you of things you’re not).

[UltraSane]

Israel left Gaza in 2005.stop telling obvious lies. Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7 2023 killing at least 800 civilians in an act of incredibly bloodthirsty barbarism, including children, the elderly, and 364 victims attending the Nova music festival. Remember when Hamas paraded the body of that young German woman Shani Louk they killed like a hunting trophy?

[FireBeyond]

> Israel left Gaza in 2005

You're absolutely right, and this is antisemitic propaganda. Israel left more than 20 years ago and didn't return until 2023 due to Hamas terrorism.

They certainly didn't return:

- for five months in 2006 for Operation Summer Rains

- or again in 2006 for Operation Autumn Clouds

- or again in 2008 for Operation Hot Winter

- or again in 2008 into 2009 for Operation Cast Lead

- or again in 2012 for Operation Pillar of Defense

- or again in 2014 for Operation Protective Edge

- or again in 2018 and 2019 for incursions and special-forces actions, like that covert IDF operation in Khan Younis that got fucked up and led to a firefight deep in Gaza (but that couldn't have happened, because they left back in 2005, right?)

- or lastly, before October 7, in 2021 in Operation Guardians of the Walls.

None of those large named operations could have happened, let alone anything smaller than named operations, like special forces or commando raids, because those things are purely Hamas propaganda, and not formal IDF operations.

Right?

[UltraSane]

This is what makes talking about Israel so exhausting. Everyone of those operations was a repsponse to some violence Hamas did and you just ignore it because you are so incredibly biased.

Hamas thinks it can destroy Israel with force. It can't anymore than native Americans can destroy the US. And Hamas trying and failing over and over and over and over has made the lives of Palastinians much worse. Hamas gleefully kills any Palestinians that point this out or oppose them in any way.

Just for comparison after Germany lost WW2 they lost 25% of their land and 14 million German living on it were expelled. Has Germany spent the last 78 years trying to get it back? No. Instead they have been doing the smarter option which is creating a peaceful and rich country, which is what the Palastinians should have done.