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by gniv 1 day ago
Wow. What could possibly have caused him to quit so soon after coming back?

I hope this is not accurate but I'm afraid it is: https://x.com/signulll/status/2067446889956430273

7 comments

https://nitter.net/signulll/status/2067446889956430273 for those who don't want to click the above
Thank you, I quit twitter 8 years ago and generally avoid twitter links.

Someone should write a bot to do this automatically. What is the HN policy on bots?

there is the extension libredirect that automatically can redirect to nitter
That was hilarious and sad.
signull is more of an anonymous sh*tposter than a known industry insider, but I think this does capture the sama contribution to OpenAI very well. At least from an outsider who follows this stuff based on vibes.
That twitter story isn't anything unique to OpenAI or Google, it's just classic "big public corp vs private startup" culture. Once you have to worry about the SEC, shareholders, antitrust, regulations, lawsuits, etc. it's very, very difficult to avoid turning into "big corp" culture.

Sama, and any other founder, will always have a difficult fight against bureaucracy, and once you let a little bit in, the bureaucracy's sole purpose becomes to grow itself.

Google is facing a legitimate innovators dilemma here. It makes sense to have all this process when youre protecting a $4.5 trillion golden goose. The tragedy here is that one predictable outcome of this situation is google deciding to considerably cut research funding when they figure out it just serves to bootstrap future competitors.
This is when it makes sense to split your business up into multiple smaller businesses. The government should be doing this via anti-trust but they have dropped the ball there so, at this point, the corps really need to just do it to themselves to better compete.
Or maybe just have your R&D teams focused on doing R&D with zero corporate interference. Staff it with personal assistants whose only job is to ensure the researchers have whatever they need and are never bothered with meetings or other corporate shenanigans. The assistants could then be the proxies to management to provide feedback to management, but only on best effort and still staying the fuck out of the way of the researchers.

Easy peasy!

Easy peasy yet still impossible for them to do as R&D doesn't add to the bottom line, it is a cost center.
Wasn't that what the whole Alphabet re-org was supposed to do?
Alphabet has Google with 99% of the profit through Ads, Search, Cloud, Gmail, Youtube etc

and tens of losing companies that make balloons or whatnot

Google and Apple both need a culling similar to what Elon did with Twitter after taking over.
Google bloat gave us transformers. Apple bloat gave us a usable touchscreen only, pocket computer (famously an entire org within Apple had developed an iPod-based approach that was competing with what was released)

The leaps forward need bloat. A startup can execute on specific vector direction way better.

Now back to your point, what did X deliver with its lean ops? It seems that it needed 2 bailouts (one from xAI, and one from space X)

innovation requires monopoly is a Theil one liner -- probably true too
Probably not true
I disagree. It's not about the culling, it has never been, and actually, it makes things worse. You spend countless hours and tons of money recruiting talented people not to lay them off because you don't want a bureaucratic org.

If the issue is inefficiency, tons of meetings, too much team alignment etc, then that's the issue that you need to tackle, and these issues can already appear in a 50-100 employee company. Sure, that's an easy problem to solve with a smaller size but unless you hired people for no reason, these people have a very specific set of problems to tackle and are often, in these companies, the best in class to tackle them, culling half of the company isn't going to make things better.

(And X rehired part of the laid-off engineers)

That depends who you are firing. There are many job roles who's primary output is meetings and documents.

What percentage of Google employees are engineers...

Is that you Musk? Twitter lost half its revenue, more than 80% of its valuation.
That was mostly because Elon told advertisers to fuck themselves at an advertising convention no?
It's impossible to disambiguate but advertiser tools, brand safety, targeting, reporting etc all need a lot of ongoing effort. If it gets harder to advertise effectively on Twitter, those dollars can very easily go elsewhere.
Eh, what has X/Twitter delivered since the cull? It’s basically in maintenance mode. Which is fine if that’s what you want to do, but Google and Apple definitely don’t (and I’m glad for that)
> It’s basically in maintenance mode

Has been in more of a maintenance mode with a multiple of those people. If anything, the pace of the product has improved. Regardless of what you think about Musk, the company he bought was a bloated mess.

Features aside, it was making considerably more money before Musk’s cull.
He merged it with SpaceX, quickly created a few colossal datacenters for training runs and somehow turned that into a 3T company.
That has nothing to do with culling staff at Twitter though.
Working recommended feed
> Google and Apple both need a culling similar to what Elon did with Twitter after taking over.

You could cut Google's size by 40% and they'd still have more corporate employees than Apple.

(Google has ~190k employees, Apple has ~160k but 50k of those are retail staff, so ~110k corporate)

Google is competing with nvidia (TPU), AWS (GCP), Netflix (youtube), Tesla (waymo self driving), OpenAI (Gemini), Microsoft (Workspace), Apple (Android)....
Apple was doing effectively everything on that list, though the self driving car was cancelled and the AI is now gemini.
"what Elon did with Twitter after taking over."

You mean fire the very smart people who designed the core systems AND insult them so that anyone with options would never want to work there?

Thanks for this. I will be thinking about “we can create a permission working group” for a long time.
I’m convinced this is 90% of the way this actually played out.
If I had to make a guess, money played a role lol.
He is close or already a billionaire, not sure much more money will be do much heavy-lifting
you'd be surprised! people seem to have a limitless appetite for that money stuff. they just can't get enough of it, i've found
I know some pretty wealthy people. They are very aware of those who are 10x wealthier than them. If Noam has 1B, he is probably pretty aware of those that have 10B. He's met them and seen their properties, scope, and powers. Likewise, they are thinking about those that have 100B, and those are thinking about Elon, who now has "four commas."
That's not really Noam's style
Most are happy and stop at multimillionaires, but of course we don't hear about them. The focus on hungry billionaires is survivor bias.

We don't hear about Tom from MySpace.

For many business people, money is just a measure of status after becoming rich.

Maybe Noam measures status differently.

How much money do you have? or are you just commenting from the peanut gallery?
i’ve got 300k in a 401k, 50k in cash and i earn 230k pretax. i’m not sure what the point of the question is tho
My point is you and I are still working for money because we want things/security etc.. I really don't get the sense that people who have tens or hundres of millions of dollars are doing it cause they need more money. It's other things that motivate people. I run into people in my workplace that just enjoy it, even though they're sitting on 20M.

All those engineers making 20M a year at Anthropic and OpenAI are going to back down to normal super high comp of 700k a year after their starter grants run out, and yes many will quit but the people who stay aren't moving the needle on their finances that much.

You're doing well, but what of you want to buy a house?
He left Character.ai for money.
This reads like an episode of Silicon Valley. I wish that show was rebooted, they'd have so much funny material nowadays.
I think real life has far eclipsed the absurdity of the original show. They might have a hard time competing with just the news now days.
Even back then Mike Judge said he had to tone down the absurdity he saw on fact-finding trips to Bay Area. He said no one would believe how absolutely stupid so much of all of it he saw was.
Or they might give tech companies more ideas!
Gilfoyle was really ahead of the times with Son of Anton.
I loved that show. The love that went into it really shows.

Sadly the gap between reality and satire has shrunk.

But yes. I also wish that show would come back.

Noam shazeer would be google head dreamer

The gap between reality and satire was apparently already very small back when the the show was written. The creator, Mike Judge (who also created Beavis & Butthead, and Idiocracy) had worked in Silicon Valley as a developer and based the show on what he saw. Apparently it was very popular with SV insiders precisely because it was so accurate.
Judge also consulted with various teams at places like Google; I worked with one of the guys who provided details that later showed up on the show (as well as many plushies). He didn't watch the show because "it hit too close to home"
And office space!
Three comma guy would now be four comma guy
Wonder what the modern version of the hotdog app would be?
Agent harness?
Your dream may be only a prompt away.
going to go with "money" and a lot of BS from altman