[pirate787]

Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues of continued vast unskilled migration into Europe and the need to re-arm in a post-NATO world are further economic burdens that will tip most of Europe into middle-income status.

[stevesimmons]

I don't buy into this critique at all... I live in two cities in Europe. I like our size of houses. I like not needing to own a car. I like that in both of the cities I live in there are 8 supermarkets within ten minutes walk. I like that I never have to think about healthcare costs. I've never felt the need for air conditioning. And when I see Americans' lives, they seem full of crappy stuff that I have no need for, food that's positively unhealthy. Not to mention guns, etc, etc.

[pjc50]

I think it's valid to question whether and how GDP translates into happiness, but America (as a whole) does just have .. more and bigger.

We will eventually start cottoning on to air conditioning as people realize it's a bidirectional solution that can warm you in the winter. The need is genuinely less than the US as Europe is both further north (New York is the same latitude as Lisbon) and currently benefiting from the Atlantic evening out the temperature.

[soco]

I don't have AC so by the above measurement I'm poor. But I have a heat pump which circulates chilled water through the floors. So which way should we compare now?

[NooneAtAll3]

something I keep failing to understand in Europe is lack of central heating

US has an excuse of suburbia - but what's the deal with compact pedestrian european cities?

[pjc50]

District heating only works if the whole district is built at once with it in mind, it's not really viable to retrofit. And the compact cores were often built before the industrial era.

[piva00]

Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe, no idea why that would be a measurement of economic advancement.

Krugman presented arguments with data, it'd be nice to see your data that counters Krugman's argument, not a whole different set of measurements that you are defining as the basis of comparison. It's just a strawman with makeup.

[goalieca]

That does not seem to ring true. 175k people die annually of heat in Europe.

https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/01-08-2024-statement--h...

[applicative]

There is really no similary between the most populous areas of Europe and, say, Columbus or Chicago or .... The summers in eastern America are savage and inhuman; the winters, by contrast, are ... savage and inhuman.

People complain about the weather in England, but in fact there are palm and eucalyptus growing in Oxford, though it's bad taste and you might lose one in a bad winter. It never gets hot and never gets cold.

I realized after living in UK and Germany that the religious fanatics who founded USA must really have been oppressed to put up with it.

[bob001]

So despite a nicer climate more people die of heat in Europe than the US which just makes Europe look a lot worse.

[bryanrasmussen]

either that or the U.S doesn't consider the same data when making its stats

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/u-s-deaths-from-h...

Where two sets of stats are concerned always make sure they actually are using the same criteria for reporting.

[bob001]

I am using the adjusted numbers. Official are 2k and scientist adjusted are around 12k. WHO's estimate for Europe is 175k. I do find all the European justification here to show a lot about what Europeans actually think of their own citizens. The numbers make us look bad and so the numbers must be wrong because we can never look bad in this way is such a modern American leadership way of looking at it.

[RandomLensman]

Most of Europe doesn't need air conditioning? By what measures/what large countries don't have any need there?

[piva00]

Poland, Germany, Switzerland, Benelux, the Nordics, Baltics, most of Central Europe don't have a need for AC. It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive.

Southern Europe has experienced more scorching heat the past 1-2 decades and AC is going to become a necessity given the trend of climate warming but it's not Arizona.

Also I think people aren't aware that the USA doesn't use the same methodology to count heat-related deaths, a heart attack from someone working out in the fields on 35C+ weather is not counted as heat-related, Scientific American published an article about it back in 2024[0].

[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/u-s-deaths-from-h...

[weatherlite]

> It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive.

Well I don't know , I lived 4 years in the Netherlands in one of those apartments that have huge windows on every room. During the summer some days got closed to 37-38c and the sun sets at what , 11PM ? I was pretty scared our newborn might die - I put a fan right on her of course but I'm not sure this setup is OK at all.

[b40d-48b2-979e]

    the sun sets at what , 11PM ?

No. Even now, in the longest days of the year, the sun sets at 10pm, and we're not even into the hottest days of the year for another month or two as the days continue to get shorter again.

[weatherlite]

Yeah 10PM is still really bad, the house becomes a freaking oven

[RandomLensman]

If "need" is defined as directly required to survive, but that isn't how I would define it. (So many things aren't "needed" then.)

[piva00]

A need is a necessity, is AC a necessity or a comfort? It's only a need if without it your life would be so insufferable that you cannot live normally, otherwise it's not a need but a comfort.

Many things aren't needed, survival doesn't mean biological survival so you don't need to bring up "a smartphone isn't a need" since without one a life in modern society becomes quite insufferable (banking access, government access, etc.).

Is AC a need or a comfort to you given this?

[RandomLensman]

Some people live their lives quite ok without a smartphone in Germany, for example - so not a need there either.

I don't like the heat, so need for me - comfort is a need.

[dzhiurgis]

Baltics definitely have need for AC for few weeks in summer. Just because some people get by, doesn't mean there isn't a need.

[applicative]

It's the reality: it doesn't get hot in the summer and it doesn't get cold in the winter. The climate is 'maritime' and moderated by the immense influence of the Atlantic/Mediterranean/Baltic. On the east coast of USA you might expect the same, but the wind is from the west and thus to some extent reproduces the savage 'continental' weather of the interior. The main body of Americans live in extremely hostile weather environments.

[RandomLensman]

Around 40C isn't hot? Around -20C isn't cold, for example?

[andor]

Europe is not a country or a single place. In central Spain, where 40 ºC is more likely, you'll find more air conditioning than in the UK, where people think that 25 ºC is hot.

[weatherlite]

Yeah that used to be true 40 years ago maybe

[vovavili]

>Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe

Uhh... https://imgur.com/a/MTTMKDr

[piva00]

So you are saying AC is a need in the Netherlands for the odd week of heatwaves in a year?

Installing thousands to millions of AC compressors, piping, having the grid ready for the spike in consumption when all these ACs turn on, etc. is a necessity that needs to happen because The Hague is reaching 30C for 3 days in the next week?

[bob001]

Interesting how little lives are worth to Europeans given how many die due to heat each year. To beat America in indifference to one's own people is an actual achievement.

[vovavili]

Buddy, this is far from three days a year in some specific Dutch city. We have this happening all over the continent. You're just out of touch.

[spwa4]

I am unaware of the US situation, but there are vast differences in housing quality across Europe. Compare the Netherlands, even bad parts of the countryside, to the Greek or Romanian countryside. WTF! And where you'd need air conditioning (Southern Italy, Sicily, Southern Greece) you won't find air conditioning, outside of some very rich enclaves (like parts of Malta, a small part of Sicily, some Greek and Adriatic Islands). And there's 1 reason for that: they can't afford it.

And if we're being entirely honest ... most large European cities I've seen certainly could benefit from having half thrown down and rebuilt. As well as essentially all of the smaller ones.

And as for one of Paul Krugman's comment "Americans, however, have more stuff, that is, material goods: Our houses and cars, in particular, are much bigger. Europeans, on the other hand, have more time ..."

That's not because Europeans don't want big houses, don't want infinite stuff. In very large parts of Europe they can't afford it. And they certainly want more and longer jobs. They just can't find jobs that pay enough to justify giving up free time. But would they work, say, 44 hours per week for a 15-20% raise? (because it's 15-20% more compared to a 38 hour week) I know people that wouldn't, but I also know people that would love such an opportunity.

[piva00]

> That's not because Europeans don't want big houses, don't want infinite stuff. In very large parts of Europe they can't afford it.

But this is true of the USA as well, large parts of it people cannot afford a big house, a bigger car, and they have fewer options of smaller dwellings, smaller cars to choose from when they cannot afford the biggest, most expensive options.

Wanting infinite stuff is definitely much less prevalent in Europe than in the USA, the materialistic culture is very different (and it differs even more between countries in Europe).

> I am unaware of the US situation, but there are vast differences in housing quality across Europe. Compare the Netherlands, even bad parts of the countryside, to the Greek or Romanian countryside. WTF!

Compare the housing quality in rich coastal cities of the USA vs the Appalachia, WTF!

[dzhiurgis]

I love spectating this criticism of Europe on X. I'm European, but live in NZ and just landed in Netherlands a week ago. While I'm generally very supportive of EU, it is indeed noticeable:

1. iOS asked me to select a default browser, but it wasn't working thus none of the links open for a while.

2. Cookie banners are holy-sheeet. I do see them while in NZ, but holy heck this is next level. They are huge and everywhere.

3. Gemini AI (and its cousin AI summaries in YouTube) is not available. Grok on my mates Tesla - not available (I think it's been out over a year on US).

4. It wasn't even a hot day, but no cooling in Amsterdam trams is insanity.

5. Some shops don't accept foreign cards. Also cards not accepted in red light district at all lol.

Bottle caps haven't bothered me, tiny housing is understandable and biking to places was nice. Workers everywhere seem unhappy and don't seem to be eager to work, but thats likely just local nuance.

[thefz]

> in practical data like housing size

Because oftentimes towns and cities were not build from the ground up in a completely new continent, and most of all, are made of bricks or cement, not wood.

> Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning.

And half of the percentage of obese population so draw your conclusions.

[throwaway63467]

Such a weird way of thinking, we achieved so many technological breakthroughs that can benefit everyone, why should anyone fall behind? Worldwide we see the opposite i.e. the world is converging more and more. And even so I don’t care, you may consume twice or thrice as much as me if you like! I don’t think most people even want to compete with the US on purchase power equality anymore, life’s pretty good here and it keeps getting better, consumption in itself isn’t an end goal. Almost all countries here are happier and healthier than the US and people spend much less time working and more time enjoying themselves.

[diego_moita]

> Don't ignore the data.

Ah, the classic "don't ignore the data that confirms my worldview, ignore just the data that contradicts it".

Also known as "lies, damn lies and statistics".

[bryanrasmussen]

said by an American!

[bilekas]

This comment probably won't go down well but your point irked me.

> And the strategic issues of continued vast unskilled migration into Europe

If only there wasn't a global power invading countries for oil reserves over the years and causing mass migration and destabilising those places?

Also have you considered 100% of the EU doesn't NEED air conditioning?

Come back when you have a minimum wage and universal healthcare. Your IT comment forgets the fact that the US allows tech companies to do whatever they like all in the pursuit of "progress" when infact you're in a situation now that your personal privacy is a memory of a dream.

[pjc50]

I will just note that there was quite a lot of European participation in the bombing of Libya, as well as the Iraq war. European policy towards North Africa has basically been "hopefully they'll drown before they cross the Mediterranean" rather than pro-stability.

[bilekas]

The EU and NATO didn't not initialize those wars. We supported the US after they made false claims for WMDs. And now when Ukraine needs some more support, they're AWOL all of a sudden. Because their "democracy" runs on the whims of a TV show personality who didn't even win more than 50% of the vote.

[DrBazza]

> If only there wasn't a global power invading countries for oil reserves over the years and causing mass migration and destabilising those places?

Do you think that's the only reason for 'mass migration'?

Consider that in the last 20 years internet access is *globally ubiquitous* because of cheap mobile phones.

That in turn means that people in the poorest parts of Africa that 20 years ago had no idea whatsoever about how 'rich' Europe is in comparison, in 2026 not only can see what they don't have, but can communicate with those than can help them make that journey by land and sea.

War and envy (for want of a better word) are the two reasons.

[bilekas]

> War and envy (for want of a better word) are the two reasons.

Envy will bring more skilled workers and you'd be surprised how many people don't want to leave their homeland. Regardless of the grass being greener. Infact it's those specific reasons why there is an integration problem, because they moved without choice so fairly don't feel obligated to integrate.