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by AndrewDucker 6 days ago
It would have been awesome if that article had, at any point, explained what an electric axial flux motor was, and why anyone might want one.
14 comments

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"In contrast to conventional radial flux motors, the electromagnetic flux in an axial flux motor runs parallel to the axis of rotation. The key components are arranged in a disc‑shaped layout: two rotors sandwich the stator from the left and right. This design enables an especially compact motor architecture, high power and torque density, and new freedoms in drivetrain packaging. In the new Mercedes‑AMG GT 4‑Door Coupe, the motor at the front axle is just under nine centimetres wide; the two motors at the rear axle each measure around eight centimetres in width. The three axial flux motors are integrated per axle into so‑called High Performance Electric Drive Units (HP.EDU), where they are combined with a compact input planetary gearbox in a single housing."

Really the kind of thing that should be earlier in an article about… that very thing the reader is wondering about, but maybe we arent the target audience?
> that very thing the reader is wondering about

Don’t mistake your curiosity for everyone else’s

It's a press release.
This is the same design that enables the PCB Stator Motors, right?
Yes. If you have a laser printer, that windup sound you hear at the start of a job is the polygon mirror motor spinning up thousands of RPMs - those are PCB stator motors. As were VCR head motors.
"Advantages : A motor can be built upon any flat structure, such as a PCB, by adding coils and a bearing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_flux_motor with image of "A miniature DC brushless axial motor used in a Digital Data Storage drive, showing the integration with PCB construction techniques."
Floppy disk drive motors, but for cars.
For some reason that reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2LvQUcwqc
> This design enables an especially compact motor architecture, high power and torque density, and new freedoms in drivetrain packaging.

Hand waving.

No, it means the motor is smaller and it can be put into the wheel
It doesn't make that a good idea. Armature losses are proportional to torque squared - doesn't matter if it is radial or axial design. That's why all the EVs today have gear boxes with ratios like 13:1. Get rid of that gearbox and the steady-state losses go up with the square of that ratio. Then there are the issues of sprung mass, and where to put the mechanical brakes.
>gear boxes with ratios like 13:1.

you add planetary gears

>sprung mass

you can integrate all into one hub (breaks, bearings, gears etc) and it weights pretty much the same.

what you gain is more space for a bigger battery, torque vectoring, no loss on diff and CVs

> you can integrate all into one hub (breaks, bearings, gears etc) and it weights pretty much the same.

You would get to delete about half the mass of the half-shaft but otherwise you are cramming a lot of stuff into the wheel volume and it all has to survive living out there. Now your HV wiring and any cooling connections to the motor have to flex with the movements of the suspension and probably need guarding against rocks and other road debris. I think all EVs now have the drive electronics tightly coupled to the motors - now that either has to be separated or made compact enough to fit and rugged enough to survive a much higher vibration regime. We do have small amounts of electronics on hub assemblies today (I'm thinking of electronic parking brakes) so there is some precedent but that circuitry is much less challenging than an inverter handling 100s of kW.

>no loss on diff

I doubt there's much loss from differentials in EVs. They don't have the bevel gear of diffs used in longitudinal layout ICE vehicles and mostly the gears in a diff don't move relative to one another (unless you are doing donuts!), so the whole cage mostly acts like a solid gear giving whatever final ratio.

YASA claims their integrated brake/wheel motor is lighter than comparable (supercar) disc brake systems.
Do they claim enough reliability and peak power capability to delete the mechanical brakes? I know Brembo is working on electric brakes that would eliminate the hydraulic circuits and pistons. I don't know what they plan to do to make sure the electrical side is as robust as the split-diagonal brake system we've been using for 60 years or so.
Yeah that's exactly what the words say, thanks for parsing it for me.

No, it's hand waving because it doesn't explain how or why. That's what "hand waving" means.

aren't there other issues with having the motor in the wheels? Unsprung mass, plus the wheels can get pretty banged around?
You could add a short drive shaft behind the springs to put the motor on the car body. That'd give you some additional advantage of moving much of the brake weight off of the wheel as well.
A very good YouTube video from Munroe Live (an engineering firm specializing in "design for manufacturing") explaining it: https://youtu.be/dCO633KE7RA "Axial Flux Motors Explained"

Edit: a video from them on this particular YASA tech being discussed : https://youtu.be/m507ryWhc6c

Visited Astrall Dynamics, a Chinese startup that builds quadrupeds with axial flux motors here in Shenzhen. Super cool to see the robots in actions, carrying 60kg of weight up over 20 flights of stairs quite rapidly. The high torque at the compact form factor was super impressive. As far as I understood they are more complex to manufacture, especially at scale.
It's a bit buried, but it does:

> In contrast to conventional radial flux motors, the electromagnetic flux in an axial flux motor runs parallel to the axis of rotation. The key components are arranged in a disc‑shaped layout: two rotors sandwich the stator from the left and right. This design enables an especially compact motor architecture, high power and torque density, and new freedoms in drivetrain packaging. In the new Mercedes‑AMG GT 4‑Door Coupe, the motor at the front axle is just under nine centimetres wide; the two motors at the rear axle each measure around eight centimetres in width. The three axial flux motors are integrated per axle into so‑called High Performance Electric Drive Units (HP.EDU), where they are combined with a compact input planetary gearbox in a single housing.

> The three axial flux motors are integrated per axle

I wonder why they need tree motors per axle.

It's poorly worded. There aren't three motors per axle, there are three motors total: one on the front axle and two on the rear axle.
The translation's a little woolly.

For the AMG GT4 there will be 3 motors: two at the rear, and one at the front.

My interpretation (and my German's pretty lousy) is that each motor is combined with a gear system in a single package, and they're calling the overall package (motor plus gears) a High Performance Electric Drive Unit (HP.EDU).

The two rear motors will probably be independent, so no need for a mechanical rear diff (it'll be electronically controlled).

There's no mention of a front diff, so it's unknown whether that's built into the front HP.EDU or is a separate mechanical diff).

In terms of traction control, does this translate to something between "4WD" and "AWD"? Or is it orthogonal?
Kind of orthogonal. Traditional AWD and part-time 4WD systems are solutions to get power from a single motor to both the front and rear of a vehicle. AWD has a center differential to account for differences in front and rear driveshaft speeds when driving on high-traction surfaces. 4WD just locks the front and rear driveshaft rotation together, which is a simple and robust solution that only works on loose surfaces.

With separate front and rear electric motors, there's no center differential to worry about, and a sufficiently sophisticated motor control system can make it behave well on and off road.

This is probably the most succinct explanation I've ever read of the differences and the advantages of one over the other. I've been trying to understand this from different sources for years now.
Thanks! Makes perfect sense. Great explanation!
I'm not sure that the traditional notion of traction control applies, given that there are three independent suppliers of power, so you don't necessarily need the mechanics of diffs and computer-controlled brakes to provide maximum traction.

What would it mean to "turn off" traction control in a car with independent motors per wheel? (OK this is a 3-motor/4-wheel scenario, but hypothetically…)

With software control and independent motors, we're likely to see increases in low-traction capability (for the right price-point and probably aimed at particular buyers)

To build on what others have said. Multiple motors per axle allow you to get rid of the diff, and you get torque vectoring basically for free.

Then there's braking. More driven wheels means more braking energy that can be recouped via regen. In traditionally rwd cars you lose out here because braking energy tends to be directed forward.

Also there's packaging. One large motor might impinge on the cabin.

Also you get benefits wrt mass production.

A smaller motor is easier to handle. Potentially could avoid the need for high voltage cables. Which eases repair.

I got the impression that there were three motors altogether and they were integrated with the axles.
“What“ might be a long answer, but why anyone might want one is to have increased torque density for the given volume and diameter. So they are thin motors where the generated flux is parallel to the shaft. And they are like the standard PMSMs where you apply the same driving algorithm from the inverter side to use them.
Here's a great Instructable on building one yourself, much better explanations in there.

https://www.instructables.com/Designing-and-Building-an-Axia...

Here's a good video on it from my watch history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCO633KE7RA
This one gives a shorter more high level overview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0CNZPenCb8
I would be careful about that video, it seems relatively "explaining this new amazing innovation that has no/negligible downsides (please invest in us)" rather than "explaining the practical pros & cons of this technology".
The AI voice is annoying, the content is as personal a a vanilla yogurt but the animation is clear.
Great video. I didn't know I was so interested in engine design before I watched it.
It's basically the V8 of electric motors. Different topology results in better power to weight ratio. From the outside they look pancake shaped.
I want a V12 or V16, thank you very much.
I'd like a 600 HP 1.5l supercharged V16 - doesn't even need to be in a car, mainly just to listen to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Racing_Motors_V16

If the displacement isn’t measured in cubic meters, can you even call it an engine?
Bonus points if you have to heat that crap you call fuel before you inject it into the massive cylinder.
If it doesn’t make at least 200kW per cylinder, can the engine even do any real work?
I’d opt for the V10 from the F2004 Ferrari F1 car if I had to pick an engine to listen to, it’s what a race car should sound like. There’s just something about a V10, it sounds musical.

https://youtu.be/gLyqoX3LZrk

That BRM V16 is a close second though! It’s probably more impressive given it’s 50 years older than the Ferrari engine and was not designed by computers.

https://youtu.be/A4w22LJrLeU

Then all you need is a good recording and decent headphones
A good recording and a sound system which can move the exact amount of air that the engine has moved, to be precise.
Ok, me too now. But you can’t have that, so maybe you could settle for a high-reving V8 in a tunnel?
V5?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR5_engine

We owned an vw inline 5 Passat (quantum in North America). Good engine and synchro awd.

Since they're relatively compact they will probably start stacking them. Like pancakes.
Stick two of them together on the same axle then.
Why do you need an axle?

Put the engine and its transmission to the wheel mounted next to each wheel.

No need for differentials etc, if they can work out a steering mechanism for each, then you've got 4WD with 4W steering.

In the video there's talk of how you can use them as regenerative braking as well, so have that as part of the wheel structure.

No axles, no differentials, independent suspension, electronically controlled power to each wheel, regenerative braking.

Gonna be a fun decade or more of innovation coming.

Wouldn't putting them in the wheel increase unsprung mass, which would degrade the feel of the car?
I think he was talking about small engines the size/weight of existing disk brake assemblies. So either no change or weight reduction.
One in every wheel
Most motors have N-S axis of magnets aligned tangential to the axis of rotation. Axial flux motors have N-S poles parallel to rotation. This allows motors to be thinner and wider as well as anyhow more lighter and sometimes easier made. Whether they make sense depends, it seems.
This sounds straight out of an 89’s sci-fi flick. What time we get to live in!
The automotive part is interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_flux_motor#Automotive

> Mercedes-Benz subsidiary YASA (Yokeless and Segmented Armature) makes AFMs that have powered various concept (Jaguar C-X75), prototype, and racing vehicles. It was also used in the Koenigsegg Regera, the Ferrari SF90 Stradale and 296GTB, Lamborghini Revuelto, McLaren Artura and the Lola-Drayson.[9] The company is investigating the potential for placing motors inside wheels, given that AFM's low mass does not excessively increase a vehicle's unsprung mass.[10]

> In July 2025, YASA announced a prototype 550 kW (738 hp) 13.1 kg (29 lb) motor, equating to power density of 42 kW/kg, which the company claimed to be the highest ever achieved.[11] By contrast, the state of the art EV motor from Lucid Motors offers a 500 kW, 31.4-kg motor, or 16 kW/kg.[12]

> The first application of these motors will be in the High Performance Mercedes‑AMG GT 4-Touring Coupe.[14]

Thanks for posting this. Axial flux motors aren't some new sci-fi invention. We've had them in gadgets for a long time like in the floppy drive example. This is just one of the first industrial scale implementations of high-torque applications.
> Axial flux motors aren't some new sci-fi invention

Indeed not. The first ever electric motor was an axial flux motor built by Michael Faraday in 1821. It's definitely not a new idea.

Consider the thousand or so comments at https://hn.algolia.com/?q=axial for more details. While it’s no substitute for a well-written comprehensive article, it certainly is a smorgasbord of answers.
I was curious before reading the article and read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_flux_motor

As far as I understand it's so small and lightweight you can put one on each wheel and remove brakes and still save weight (something something unsprung weight bad).