[NiloCK]

> Automation doesn't make operators more careful. It makes them forget how to be. The more reliable the system, the less ready the human.

The entire premise of a system is that it removes the need for careful attention.

system: signal lights tell me whether or not I can pass through an intersection, so that I do not have to attend to potentially high speed traffic from a variety of directions.

system: the side my knife blade sits on my arched guide fingers, so that I do not have to attend to the edge of the blade or the location of my fingers.

etc etc.

[bumby]

>The entire premise of a system is that it removes the need for careful attention.

I think this premise is flawed or, at best, too narrow. A system is just a logical grouping of items that perform a function. Sometimes that function can be to reduce cognitive burden, but it doesn't have to be. A "vision system" like what humans use does not reduce attention, but increases/enables it, while a autonomic nervous system can reduce attention. The ability to increase/reduce attention is not the central principle of a system.

[tekne]

What I'd say you're pointing out is that the word "system" is overloaded.

A vision system does allow you to pay less attention: you don't need to carefully remember how far away the door is, you just need to look! I tried this often as a kid: if you want to navigate a hallway with your eyes closed, you need to pay far more attention to your other senses than you need to pay with your eyes -- where attention here is not the volume of data, but rather the complexity of conscious bookkeeping -- I can (ironically) "play it by ear" with my eyes open, but eyes closed I must plan every step!

It just so happens to be that the ability to pay less attention makes more things possible and hence the demand for attention overall may increase -- if not intrinsically, due to your competitors (who can also see!)

[bumby]

I would argue this take conflates attention with cognitive overhead required because of a lack of training. Navigating with our closed feels like it takes more attention because we’ve practiced so many hours navigating by sight that it no longer feels cognitively burdensome. A bat would have no trouble navigating without sight for the same reason. I don’t think most people would say giving up our sight for echolocation would reduce our attention, it just transforms it.

[andai]

> system: signal lights tell me whether or not I can pass through an intersection, so that I do not have to attend to potentially high speed traffic from a variety of directions.

You know I noticed this... I lived in a country where people obey traffic laws, and in a country where they very much don't.

I witnessed many more traffic accidents in the country where people are used to relying on the traffic lights to tell them if it's safe or not.

Whereas in the other country, everyone correctly assumes that the other drivers are completely insane, and so they stay vigilant.

[infecto]

Other than the data of road fatalities that disproves this anecdote, my own anecdote is this is the false sense of security people get in other countries that don’t have traffic laws. Oh see the people have to look all the time so it’s much safer. When you start to live it for a long time you realize it’s not true. Many more fatalities.

Now I do think the science shows if you design roads and systems to make drivers more thoughtful it can improve outcomes. Size roads for the speed limit, roundabouts, etc. these can make a difference as it balances the system.

[tekne]

Having lived, driven, and crossed roads in both -- what I find is essentially that drivers from poor systems pay far more attention, but the system is a lot more effective than attention.

The difference here is one of stability: in a developing country, I can just walk across a street (often there is no traffic light) by essentially signalling with my body language -- both I and the drivers are paying attention. And if one party fails, the other has a good chance of catching that mistake.

Now, in a developed country, neither side is paying attention. If I walk across the street, I'm in danger, no matter how clear my body language (I tried it on British streets a few times -- it works in some areas, but usually very poorly!), and no one expects a crazy driver to come barreling through a red light.

The developing countries fall behind because in the crazy * sane intersection, sometimes the sane person is just not fast enough -- whereas the crazy * crazy intersection is extremely dangerius and happens often enough.

On the other hand, a developed country makes every interaction sane * sane regardless of the personalities or moods of those involved -- but God forbid a bit of crazy leaks out!

[cucumber3732842]

>Other than the data of road fatalities that disproves this anecdote,

You can't make that assertion (well you can, it's called "lying with statistics" but that's beside the point) without knowing if the fatalities the result of the accident rate or just a higher conversion ratio as a result of reduced safety equipment, reduced seatbelt usage, more motorcycles, etc, etc, worse emergency services, etc, etc.

INB4 other people start whining on your behalf, I'm not saying those countries aren't less safe to drive, just that you can't do a straight comparison of accident rates and fatalities without considering the conversion ratio.

[infecto]

Of course you have to consider confounders. That’s why transportation data usually includes best efforts.

But at some point you have to look at the totality of the evidence. Countries with better road infrastructure, enforcement, vehicle standards, and driving behavior generally produce better safety outcomes. The fact that multiple factors contribute doesn’t make the observed outcome meaningless.

As I already stated there is absolutely systems that increase the perceived sense of risk that can help outcomes (road width sizing, roundabouts, minimal signs/lines) but those typically work best in a system where there is already some sense of order.

Less Reddit style snark would go a long way too.

[dataflow]

Whether you witness something or not is a function of a ton of other things too, so much that it makes your anecdotes useless if not actively harmful.

For example, if you live somewhere where you use the highway more often, that sure as heck can skew the result.

Or if you live(d) somewhere where people tend to hit and run instead of waiting... you're obviously not going to witness them as often.

Also, note that accidents and injuries are not the same thing. You can totally have fewer accidents but more injuries or fatalities.

Without knowing the neighborhoods you've lived in (so people can compare the data for themselves) you're really not going to make a compelling case.

[pjc50]

There's some documented studies of removing all the street clutter and lines from residential area intersections forcing drivers to be more careful, especially around pedestrians, reducing overall accidents. But this does reduce throughput slightly.

[gbacon]

This is an example of risk compensation. When people perceive greater protections around themselves, they tend to become more aggressive at the margin, such as with the driving habits that you mentioned or hitting more violently in American football because of improvements in helmets and padding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

[analog31]

Football might be a weak example, because being able to hit harder is an overwhelming competitive advantage. A player who acted like they were not wearing a helmet would be effectively dysfunctional.

In contrast, most careless driving habits don't actually get anybody to their destination any quicker.

[andai]

Update: someone replied below with a link to traffic deaths statistics. Turns out the data shows the opposite of what I witnessed.

The insane driving country has double the traffic related deaths as the chill, lawful driving country.

[raincole]

Except if you look at this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

People die on road more in countries that conventionally don't follow traffic laws.

[infecto]

Not sure why this would downvoted. Go to a less developed nation where traffic laws are not important and it’s one of those sense of false security ideas.

[setsewerd]

When I lived in India everyone would always tell me how everyone drives so much safer there because they're more aware etc (similar reasoning as we're seeing in this thread), but man, the national crash statistics say otherwise.

Not to mention I lost count of how many dozens of accidents I witnessed in my year there. I've personally been in 3 rickshaw crashes.

[infecto]

My experience as well in Vietnam. the first time I was there I figured they were right but it’s just a false narrative people sell to make themselves feel safe. Don’t even get me started on methed out American size semi trucks speeding with no concern of running you over.

[nancyminusone]

>signal lights tell me whether or not I can pass

No they don't, they tell you and other vehicles to stop. You would fail your driving test if you depend only on the traffic lights and don't bother to verify it is safe to pass yourself.

[kqr]

The main function of a traffic signal is the green phase, not the red phase. A traffic signal increases throughput by allowing drivers to ignore crossing traffic.

(If safety/the red phase was the purpose, the intersection would use a roundabout instead.)

[dmoy]

I mean, it depends on where you take your driving test. In a lot of places in the US (especially in some rural areas), you may still pass. In some cases you might not even drive near a stoplight during the test.

[AlexandrB]

If you "know a guy" you can even pass a driving test without ever getting behind the wheel of a car. Road licensing is in complete shambles in the last 10 years. A lot of "workarounds" and corruption.

[stronglikedan]

You definitely still should be paying attention to cross traffic, regardless of what the lights indicate. The lights just make it easier by stopping most traffic for you, so you only have to do a quick scan for outliers.

[gbacon]

The distinction is subtle.

Someone learning to fly may be described as paying careful attention: to every little sound, vibration, and sensation. A common tactic by student pilots is overcontrolling the aircraft, e.g., large sudden changes rather than smooth pressures from flying with a light touch.

Automation requires active, intentional attention particularly when flying in clouds. What are my instruments telling me? Are they all telling the same story? Have any failed? Which ones?

A significant part of flight training and testing emphasizes the ability to divide attention between multiple competing needs, being able to correctly prioritize them, and responding promptly and safely in order of priority.