[andai]

> system: signal lights tell me whether or not I can pass through an intersection, so that I do not have to attend to potentially high speed traffic from a variety of directions.

You know I noticed this... I lived in a country where people obey traffic laws, and in a country where they very much don't.

I witnessed many more traffic accidents in the country where people are used to relying on the traffic lights to tell them if it's safe or not.

Whereas in the other country, everyone correctly assumes that the other drivers are completely insane, and so they stay vigilant.

[infecto]

Other than the data of road fatalities that disproves this anecdote, my own anecdote is this is the false sense of security people get in other countries that don’t have traffic laws. Oh see the people have to look all the time so it’s much safer. When you start to live it for a long time you realize it’s not true. Many more fatalities.

Now I do think the science shows if you design roads and systems to make drivers more thoughtful it can improve outcomes. Size roads for the speed limit, roundabouts, etc. these can make a difference as it balances the system.

[tekne]

Having lived, driven, and crossed roads in both -- what I find is essentially that drivers from poor systems pay far more attention, but the system is a lot more effective than attention.

The difference here is one of stability: in a developing country, I can just walk across a street (often there is no traffic light) by essentially signalling with my body language -- both I and the drivers are paying attention. And if one party fails, the other has a good chance of catching that mistake.

Now, in a developed country, neither side is paying attention. If I walk across the street, I'm in danger, no matter how clear my body language (I tried it on British streets a few times -- it works in some areas, but usually very poorly!), and no one expects a crazy driver to come barreling through a red light.

The developing countries fall behind because in the crazy * sane intersection, sometimes the sane person is just not fast enough -- whereas the crazy * crazy intersection is extremely dangerius and happens often enough.

On the other hand, a developed country makes every interaction sane * sane regardless of the personalities or moods of those involved -- but God forbid a bit of crazy leaks out!

[cucumber3732842]

>Other than the data of road fatalities that disproves this anecdote,

You can't make that assertion (well you can, it's called "lying with statistics" but that's beside the point) without knowing if the fatalities the result of the accident rate or just a higher conversion ratio as a result of reduced safety equipment, reduced seatbelt usage, more motorcycles, etc, etc, worse emergency services, etc, etc.

INB4 other people start whining on your behalf, I'm not saying those countries aren't less safe to drive, just that you can't do a straight comparison of accident rates and fatalities without considering the conversion ratio.

[infecto]

Of course you have to consider confounders. That’s why transportation data usually includes best efforts.

But at some point you have to look at the totality of the evidence. Countries with better road infrastructure, enforcement, vehicle standards, and driving behavior generally produce better safety outcomes. The fact that multiple factors contribute doesn’t make the observed outcome meaningless.

As I already stated there is absolutely systems that increase the perceived sense of risk that can help outcomes (road width sizing, roundabouts, minimal signs/lines) but those typically work best in a system where there is already some sense of order.

Less Reddit style snark would go a long way too.

[dataflow]

Whether you witness something or not is a function of a ton of other things too, so much that it makes your anecdotes useless if not actively harmful.

For example, if you live somewhere where you use the highway more often, that sure as heck can skew the result.

Or if you live(d) somewhere where people tend to hit and run instead of waiting... you're obviously not going to witness them as often.

Also, note that accidents and injuries are not the same thing. You can totally have fewer accidents but more injuries or fatalities.

Without knowing the neighborhoods you've lived in (so people can compare the data for themselves) you're really not going to make a compelling case.

[pjc50]

There's some documented studies of removing all the street clutter and lines from residential area intersections forcing drivers to be more careful, especially around pedestrians, reducing overall accidents. But this does reduce throughput slightly.

[gbacon]

This is an example of risk compensation. When people perceive greater protections around themselves, they tend to become more aggressive at the margin, such as with the driving habits that you mentioned or hitting more violently in American football because of improvements in helmets and padding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

[analog31]

Football might be a weak example, because being able to hit harder is an overwhelming competitive advantage. A player who acted like they were not wearing a helmet would be effectively dysfunctional.

In contrast, most careless driving habits don't actually get anybody to their destination any quicker.

[andai]

Update: someone replied below with a link to traffic deaths statistics. Turns out the data shows the opposite of what I witnessed.

The insane driving country has double the traffic related deaths as the chill, lawful driving country.

[raincole]

Except if you look at this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

People die on road more in countries that conventionally don't follow traffic laws.

[infecto]

Not sure why this would downvoted. Go to a less developed nation where traffic laws are not important and it’s one of those sense of false security ideas.

[setsewerd]

When I lived in India everyone would always tell me how everyone drives so much safer there because they're more aware etc (similar reasoning as we're seeing in this thread), but man, the national crash statistics say otherwise.

Not to mention I lost count of how many dozens of accidents I witnessed in my year there. I've personally been in 3 rickshaw crashes.

[infecto]

My experience as well in Vietnam. the first time I was there I figured they were right but it’s just a false narrative people sell to make themselves feel safe. Don’t even get me started on methed out American size semi trucks speeding with no concern of running you over.