[peterspath]

It’s the DMA regulation that forces Apple to give the same access as they have to other AI chat apps.

Once it leaves the device Apple does not know what those other ai chat apps will do with the gathered data.

> Siri AI is private by design and deeply integrated across Apple’s platforms using on-device processing and Private Cloud Compute, which extends the privacy and security of iPhone into the cloud. However, under EU regulators’ extreme interpretation of the DMA, Apple would have to give any virtual assistant direct access to users’ private data — and the ability to directly control other installed applications — as soon as Siri AI is made available in the EU, without the essential protections necessary to keep users and their data safe.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/06/due-to-dma-siri-ai-de...

[bloppe]

Apple loves to play dumb about this stuff. The EU imposes a pretty straightforward regulation regarding equality of access. Apple seems to come up with all sorts of "solutions" to this "problem", and each one never amounts to true equality of access. They could easily just allow users to decide "Do you want to give this app unfettered access to all your device data, including other apps' data?". Let users decide. 99% of Apple users in the EU will probably click "no". I'm sure they'll make the user warnings scary enough to ward off anybody who doesn't know what's going on.

There are 2 potential outcomes: either the sky really does fall, and there's a meaningful uptick in bad things happening to iPhone users, in which Apple can easily point the finger at the EC and say "they made us do this". Apple looks like the good guys who put up a good fight for their users, but ultimately their hands were tied, and they'll probably get the revisions to EU law they're so desperately fighting for.

The other possibility is that the sky does not fall, and Apple looks both silly and malicious at the same time for ever having suggested that it would, which was clearly in bad faith.

Clearly, Apple cannot afford scenario #2, so I think they will probably never give their users the actual freedom that the MDA requires them to. They will just exit Europe entirely before allowing that to happen.

[FridgeSeal]

> Do you want to give this app unfettered access to all your device data, including other apps' data?

Which Facebook and instagram will present as “tee hee updated terms of service” in the first 15 seconds, and people will tick it, because they’re not interested in reading T&C’s, just want to message their friend about dinner, and aren’t suddenly expected be deceived like that.

[bloppe]

Obviously there should be a system dialog to grant system permissions. I'm not aware of any kind of system with a capability-based permissions system (e.g. Android, MacOS, browsers, etc.) where apps are allowed to show their own dialog to request permissions. You always have to do something in the system settings to grant permissions.

That's how it should be done. And that would be the responsible way to comply with the DMA.

[ruszki]

Did they really circumvent this exact restriction which was imposed on them on OS level by Apple?

[Zagitta]

Ah yes something a trillion dollar tech company definitely is too inept to solve!

[transcriptase]

Why bother when some round-rimmed glasses wearing suit in Brussels named Klaus will immediately begin working on the next set of demands?

[ethbr1]

Yes, heaven forbid governments impose any constraints on Microsoft, Apple, Google, or Facebook, because they've been handling things so well on their own.

[koolala]

Sounds more thoughtful than the political theater that happened around banning / controlling Tiktok.

[jkubicek]

> There are 2 potential outcomes: either the sky really does fall, and there's a meaningful uptick in bad things happening to iPhone users, in which Apple can easily point the finger at the EC and say "they made us do this". Apple looks like the good guys who put up a good fight for their users, but ultimately their hands were tied, and they'll probably get the revisions to EU law they're so desperately fighting for. > > The other possibility is that the sky does not fall, and Apple looks both silly and malicious at the same time for ever having suggested that it would, which was clearly in bad faith.

I think the most likely outcome is between these two extremes. My personal data ends up sold to shady companies who use it to target ever more invasive advertising at me in places I wouldn't expect/. Like a boiling frog, I won't really notice the difference and my life will gradually become a little shittier.

[bloppe]

Then just click "no" if your phone ever asks you to grant permissions like this to a third party app, which should obviously be the default option. Or better yet, don't install the third party apps to begin with. For you, it will be as though nothing has changed.

For the people who want a bit of freedom though, their lives will suddenly get a lot better.

[woah]

> There are 2 potential outcomes: either the sky really does fall, and there's a meaningful uptick in bad things happening to iPhone users, in which Apple can easily point the finger at the EC and say "they made us do this". Apple looks like the good guys who put up a good fight for their users, but ultimately their hands were tied, and they'll probably get the revisions to EU law they're so desperately fighting for.

I'd prefer they focus on safeguarding my data instead of playing a ridiculous game of brinksmanship with regulators to make a point.

[bloppe]

I agree. Safeguarding data and user freedom are 100% compatible, no brinkmanship required.

[girvo]

> There are 2 potential outcomes: either the sky really does fall, and there's a meaningful uptick in bad things happening to iPhone users, in which Apple can easily point the finger at the EC and say "they made us do this". Apple looks like the good guys who put up a good fight for their users, but ultimately their hands were tied, and they'll probably get the revisions to EU law they're so desperately fighting for.

I don't think that is what will happen. People, and the media, will blame Apple: it is them after all giving that data over because they hold it. No that doesn't make logical sense, but that has never mattered before why would it matter now.

Once Apple loses that trust re. data privacy, its gone forever. I get why they're being particular about it.

[bloppe]

People will absolutely not blame Apple if the exact thing they warned would happen, and said would be really bad, actually turns out to happen and be really bad.

Apple has very well-funded PR. They will make sure that the EC is blamed.

Then, they get to be the heroes once the law is changed to allow them to come to everyone's rescue by banishing all third-party app access forever. They would ultimately be the saviours.

[internet2000]

Yes they will. People are blaming Apple already for not being separate enough from Google.

[ummonk]

Yeah and we've already seen this with Facebook getting blamed for Cambridge Analytica.

[progbits]

> EU regulators’ extreme interpretation of the DMA

It's not extreme interpretation, it's the intent.

Just say it would break your vendor lock-in.

[quentindanjou]

I don't want my apps that have AI implemented to be able to read my messages because Europe mandates feature parity. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. For Apple it means building all the APIs that probably already exist but this time to be requested by apps, which would be a huge attack surface, even Apple's own apps suffers from security breaches (like Message before the switch to closed container execution). AI breaks the separation of concerns, which can lead to disastrous consequences.

EU has great intentions, and of course, feature parity should be offered so that competition can exist, but I don't find it crazy that it is more complicated on a product like that. As tech people things are very obvious to us but we need to remember that we are talking about a product used by everyone.

[layer8]

It’s not clear how it is significantly different from allowing apps access to your contacts, calendar, photos, and so on. And Apple doesn’t say that they merely need more time to properly implement it, the claim that they are unable to implement it without compromising privacy and security. And the latter I don’t really see, with the proper set of permissions presented in the way users are already used to.

As an Apple user I feel more patronized than empowered here.

[dwaite]

> It’s not clear how it is significantly different from allowing apps access to your contacts, calendar, photos, and so on

Those are allowed via contextual consent prompts, several of which are for specific contacts, specific photos you wish to share, and so on.

Examples of the level of access an AI agent has include:

1. To read all indexed personal data from every app installed on the device

2. To perform actions in every supporting app on the device on the user's behalf

3. To read the current displayed apps for additional context as well as sensor data like current location

If you were regulated such that you had to allow any organization this level of access, and if you were hand-tied in how much you could convey the seriousness of accepting that consent prompt to an ordinary end user, and felt that it would be you, not any legal authority, who would ultimately suffer the reputational and legal consequences for the results - what would your yes/no decision be on shipping the feature in that jurisdiction?

[layer8]

How is this substantially different from Safari extensions that can effectively see and act upon everything you do in the browser?

One can imagine contextual prompts for all of the examples that you give, like which data sources and which apps the AI provider is given access to — similar to how you can choose for a Safari extension which websites it has access to — and for how long.

That all seams reasonably implementable. You could even use multiple AI providers in parallel with different subsets of data and apps, which would allow you to compartementalize access by different providers in a way that isn't possible with Apple's AI.

Such integration interfaces are necessary in the long run if we don't want to lock in our whole life to a singular combination of hardware, OS, and AI provider.

[bloppe]

The law does not require Apple to grant all permissions to all apps for all users. It just requires Apple to ask users if the user wants to grant elevated permissions to specific apps that they download. The user can always say "no", which should obviously be the default.

The situation is that Apple won't even allow users to grant elevated permissions to any 3rd party app, even if the user wants to.

[msh]

But then third party apps can force users to accept this before they work (here I am especially thinking of school and work apps that people might be forced to use).

[bloppe]

App store guidelines already strictly prohibit developers from demanding overbroad or unnecessary permissions, and they expressly forbid locking unrelated features behind irrelevant data requests. Any app that attempts to do so can easily be yanked off the app store by a single complaint.

[aucisson_masque]

> don't want my apps that have AI implemented to be able to read my messages because Europe mandates feature parit

App permissions.

Beside you don't have to install any third party app, I only have Google assistant installed on my Android.

I heard the same kind of talk when the eu forced apple to switch to USB C...

There is a real, strong, monopolistic issue with some American companies that their government refuse to deal with because it's so corrupt. It would be fine if it didn't impact us in Europe, but it does.

[darkwater]

> I don't want my apps that have AI implemented to be able to read my messages because Europe mandates feature parity.

The AI provider would still be YOUR choice. You could stick with Apple's if you don't trust the other ones.

[sterlind]

so to translate:

- Apple has powerful capabilities in iOS to enable Siri AI.

- EU's DMA requires them to allow users to install third-party AI backends.

- Apple doesn't think parties other than themselves should be trusted with those iOS permissions.

I guess it'd be like if Apple allowed a first-party screen reader for iOS, so they refused to allow third-party screen readers.

[ClawsOnPaws]

As a screen reader user, Apple does have a first party screen reader, VoiceOver, and does indeed not let you run a third party one. In fact, it does not work well even on the more open MacOS. So essentially it's VoiceOver or nothing. Luckily, especially on iOS, VoiceOver mostly works well.

[sterlind]

I'm glad it works decently on iOS, at least. my mom has little central vision, and she struggles on iOS just using high contrast plus scaling plus magnifier. I think she has just enough vision to not absolutely need VoiceOver but it still makes using her phone a frustrating and tiring experience.

[wahnfrieden]

Try https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/assistive-access-iphon... ?

[Schiendelman]

I don't think they're "trusting Google" with anything. It's a Google model run by Apple, just like you download a model from Hugging Face to run when you want to.

[usrnm]

> It's a Google model run by Apple

Run by Apple where? Do they really have enough hardware to run it in-house?

[ezfe]

Reportedly it's running in Google Cloud, but Apple already uses Google Cloud for iCloud

[trollbridge]

Yes, and if they don't, they can lease datacentre capacity like anyone else can. SpaceX seems to have plenty for rent.

[wmf]

Apparently it's now a Google model run by Apple on GPUs rented from Google.

[sterlind]

updated my post to reflect this, thanks.

[Schiendelman]

You bet! Also I appreciate your edit, a lot of people don't understand how much benefit they can bring to this community by doing that!

[taneq]

> Apple doesn't think parties other than themselves should be trusted with those iOS permissions.

I think we have ample evidence that regardless of whether Apple in particular is to be trusted, tech companies by default are certainly not.

Opening up access to users’ private data requires not just any given app to be trustworthy, but all of them.

[Gigachad]

In this case I think it is true that 3rd parties can not be trusted with this capability, but Apple brought this on themselves by creating a ton of other capabilities like AirDrop, Airpods integrations, and apple watch capabilities which would have been safe for 3rd parties to use but keeping them locked down so you'd get a better experience with Apple accessories.

[bla3]

I don't think they trust Gemini as they run that on-device or on-site, on Apple's own servers.

See also https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

[ErneX]

Newer one:

https://security.apple.com/blog/expanding-pcc/

[aprilthird2021]

> Once it leaves the device Apple does not know what those other ai chat apps will do with the gathered data.

It's the user's data. Not Apple's. And it should be the user's right to send it to whoever for whatever results, imo

[e28eta]

I think there’s a case that Apple’s commitment to privacy here will increase participation by 3rd party developers.

For example, if I’m maintaining a secure chat app, I think I’d be more likely to adopt the APIs to share the chat messages with the system AI due to Apple’s promises that the data will either be processed On Device, or in their Private Compute Cloud.

If I instead believe that sharing the chat messages with the system AI would cause those messages to be sent to unknown-to-me other entities, I think I’d be less likely to participate in the new API.

This user might be okay with their data going to this other provider, but what about the people they’re messaging? I have a responsibility and a commitment to _all_ of my users to protect their data.

I might not be able to control what any specific user does with the data, but proactively writing the code that sends the chat messages to this other system is something that I have control over.

[Rohansi]

> This user might be okay with their data going to this other provider, but what about the people they’re messaging? I have a responsibility and a commitment to _all_ of my users to protect their data.

That's nice of you but your users are going to just copy-paste data to and from ChatGPT anyway.

[e28eta]

I think the difference is in the scale. I think Apple’s asking you to index / share all of the data from your app. Virtually no user is going to copy & paste every single message into ChatGPT.

And so I think there’s a meaningful difference between the app donating all the data automatically, vs making the data available to the user who is free to share what they want.

[ok_dad]

That’s not your data, why do you think you have the right to prevent the user from doing what they want? Other users shared that chat data with each other, you have no right to that data, so as an app developer I’d say you should not care about the API.

[Rohansi]

And that's exactly how it works for apps you download from the App Store. Apple even makes app publishers declare data collection and privacy practices on the App Store before you install apps.

It's clearly just Apple not wanting to further open up their platform to competition.

[benoau]

Not only that but it's an honour system they aren't checking any of the privacy policies or labels for accuracy, just last year a whole bunch of high-profile apps like Candy Crush Saga and Clash of Clans got caught claiming suitability for all ages while their privacy policies banned under 13s so they could advertise and collect data indiscriminately.

[Rohansi]

They should be checking things like that. It's something that you'd expect to be covered by Apple's 30% cut.

[koolala]

Meta would probably start a massive ad campain to pay people money to install Meta iPhone AI.

[benoau]

Meta already did that, right under Apple's nose for three years!

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/

[FridgeSeal]

They wouldn’t even need to do that. It’s pretty easy to come up with any number of pernicious approaches they’d use:

- “instagram is better with MetaAi: yes/ask-me-later”.

- updated ToS which bundles a “we’ll use our own ai, and do whatever we waaaaant”

Lying, gaslighting and underhanded “growth hacking” tricks are their bread-and-butter, and you can be sure that whatever they’d have you install would blindly slurp up as much as they possibly can with zero regard for user privacy.

[well_ackshually]

> Once it leaves the device Apple does not know what those other ai chat apps will do with the gathered data.

Yeah, that's the whole fucking point.

[tom1337]

> It’s the DMA regulation that forces Apple to give the same access as they have to other AI chat apps.

But why can Tesla ship Grok to their cars in the EU without any problems? Why aren't they required to let me choose between Grok, OpenAI etc or even a custom endpoint?

[dchest]

The are not a "gatekeeper" under DMA (not enough users). Same as macOS.

[mschuster91]

> But why can Tesla ship Grok to their cars in the EU without any problems?

Simply because they are too small in user count. EU DMA, DSA etc. only apply at certain thresholds. Twitter for example falls under the scope, but Tesla is a distinct entity from Twitter and even if they were merged together, they would still be distinct services in the eye of the law.

[j_maffe]

Because Tesla hasn't been classified as a gate-keeper in the DMA.

[rahkiin]

Tesla is not marked as a gatekeeper by the EU and thus the law does not apply.

[troupo]

Translation:

Since it's the user's device, not Apple's, EU correctly "interprets" this as the user has the right to do whatever they please, including installing third-party chat apps.

Apple are just bulshitters when it comes to actual users, and not their corporate definition of a user.

BTW, did you know that in Japan, and in Japan only, you can change the Siri shortcut button to start other voice assistants? https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/11/18/ios-26-2-third-party-voic...

Or that they wouldn't let you set default maps app outside of the EU: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-ma...

[dwaite]

> Or that they wouldn't let you set default maps app outside of the EU

They were mandated to create a scheme in isolation on a deadline, without having input either from navigation apps or from consumers, and without any requirement that web browsers or other operating systems would need to support the same scheme.

As another comment pointed out - it doesn't work. Websites and apps still integrate with a navigation product directly, rather than use this scheme. And why wouldn't they? Even if it was launched worldwide on iOS, it still is just a defined subset of any particular navigation product functionality. It also is just yet another navigation option to integrate into your platform, since the feature still wouldn't be available on desktops/Android.

Until everyone is sitting at the table wanting to work towards interoperability, the feature simply can't work. So why perpetuate a broken chooser into other markets?

[troupo]

> They were mandated to create a scheme in isolation on a deadline

Self-imposed isolation and deadline.

> without having input either from navigation apps or from consumers

Because Apple never asked either navigation app developers or consumers since "Apple knows best" and spent several years fighting DMA instead of implementing these features.

> Websites and apps still integrate with a navigation product directly, rather than use this scheme.

Because there was no scheme to begin with, and when Apple finally relented and made it, it only made it available in the EU.

> Until everyone is sitting at the table wanting to work towards interoperability, the feature simply can't work.

Yes, Apple doesn't want to sit at the table to work towards interoperability.

Apple Maps was made default on iOS in 2012. They literally only implemented the "scheme" last year, 13 years later.

DMA entered force in 2022. Apple had known about it coming for at least two years before that.

And even without DMA that would be a proper thing to do to begin with which they had to be forced to do by government action.

[bigfudge]

This is such a shallow take. There are obvious privacy and security tradeoffs here. The EU competition framework is good in many ways, but this is actually something I don’t think we have the regulatory frameworks in place to handle yet , or social norms and understanding about why giving any Tom dick and Harry root on all your data is a bad idea.

It’s paternalistic, but I agree with Apple that free for all access to this kind of data is not a great idea. Ironically, before this could work we’d actually need much more EU style data regulation, and more consistently enforced.

[Maxion]

I dunno, I trust the EU regulators more than I'd trust any US based company.

[bigfudge]

I do too, but in this case the choice isn't between apple and the EU. It's between apple and the <random rapacious vc backed ai startup looking to hoover your data> your non-technical friends foolishly trust, without much understanding of the implications for them or society as a whole.

Ultimately I think it's important for the EU to regulate companies like apple to ensure competition. But in this instance, it doesn't seem like we have all the other pieces in place that would be necessary for a sensible rollout of that.

[troupo]

> but in this case the choice isn't between apple and the EU. It's between apple and the

Funny how the word user never enters these conversations. As in user device that the user has paid for and where the user should have a choice of what the user wants to do.

And we know why. E.g. Apple literally argues that giving users more choice forces Apple to give users less choice: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-a...

[yunwal]

what's the missing piece exactly? In every other situation where a company wants to launch an iphone app to hoover your data, Apple gives a clear message telling you what types of data you're giving access to. Why is this situation different?

[bigfudge]

For me, it's real regulations about what data can reasonably be hoovered, what it's used for, for how long. And a culture where the majority don't blindly click yes to all messages like that because the only alternative is not to use the shiny new thing they have been sold. I don't think it could ever appear in the US, which is why it's a good thing apple won't be forced to open up there. But if the EU does insist, they should be careful what they wish for and plan for the negative consequences of a free for all.

[troupo]

There's nothing shallow about my take.

Apple uses "privacy and security" as a cudgel to prevent anyone from breaking into the vendor lock in. To the point that EU actually had to explicitly tell Apple what to do [1], as Apple delayed features, made them extremely hard or convoluted for third-parties to use, and pulled every trick out of the malicious compliance manual.

This whole virtual assistants thing will drag on for another several years.

Edit: I mean they show their models accessing and changing a password on the user's bank site at the same time as accessing and changing passwords on another random site. Which is one prompt away from exfiltrating user data. So spare me the "Apple knows best about privacy and security so they should keep any access to their platforms locked down"

[1] https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/developer-portal/in...

[bigfudge]

It's shallow because it doesn't acknowledge that there is a real tradeoff. I share a lot of your cynicism about US tech companies, but I think you need to be realistic about the state of the market and how the incentives align.

Apples incentives are not, currently, as strongly misaligned with their user interests as many other tech firms (meta, google, random startups, etc). Going slowly might not be a bad idea for most people here.

That said, I hadn't seen the demo you mention. If they do do that (bank passwords etc) they are stupider than I thought they would be.

[OrangeDelonge]

Apple’s incentives will grow misaligned as their revenue from ads grows. (and that revenue is skyrocketing)

[bigfudge]

Probably true. But that’s not the position we are in now. Apple is much better aligned with users interests than any one else, at least for short/medium term.

[t0mas88]

Sounds like Apple PR bullshit.

Unless Apple proves otherwise I'm more inclined to believe they're either 1. Using this to try and shape the DMA in their own interest (definitely not their users' interest) or 2. Doing something with the data that would not be allowed in the EU (also not in their users' interest at all) or both.

[pjmlp]

Because outsourcing to Google is so much trustworthy...

[another_kel]

I believe Google provides the weights, compute is apple owned

[pjmlp]

> Apple to use Google servers with Nvidia hardware for the new Siri

https://www.macworld.com/article/3156959/apple-to-use-google...

People have to stop thinking Apple is somehow different.

[coldtea]

From the link "Nvidia has its own “confidential computing” feature that encrypts data as it’s being processed, which will be used with other privacy and security measures to protect user data"

[speedgoose]

Do you know if it end to end encrypted or the keys are managed by Google?

[wmf]

I think the keys are directly from Nvidia and Intel.

[pjmlp]

Yes, and how does the data get there?

[wmf]

Over TLS?

[kube-system]

From your link:

> Apple’s going to try to run as much of the new Siri as possible on-device

Anthropic and OpenAI don't have edge models.

[pjmlp]

Try is a magic word.

[kube-system]

It's not magic to those paying attention. The current model runs on device. And gemma e4b is already demonstrably capable on iPhone hardware, which is likely to be similar to what this is.