[Muhammad523]

This is what happens when you run an OS controlled by some random big corporation. I dont mean that it's the person's fault, but just that you should not rely on Apple. they allow you to use your computer, but on their terms.

Install some GNU/Linux distro and you can do whatever you want.

[functionmouse]

for most people this is like saying "If you don't like being oppressed, just move to Antarctica!"

[callc]

Maybe more like “Learn how to replace an AC filter by yourself instead of calling an AC repair company”

I just installed PopOS on a laptop recently, and… it just worked. There’s an app store for noobs that I think installs flatpaks. GPU drivers just work. Whole disk encryption. Everything just works.

I don’t see what else my grandma that just uses Facebook would need. Maybe automatic updates?

[functionmouse]

No. Changing one's primary operating system takes time, dedication, and is a lifestyle change, similar to moving somewhere remote. Changing ones AC filter is none of those things.

If you and your grandma only rely on the computer for its web browser, then good for you. You have flexibility that is not afforded to most people. But that's not how a person's phone works; phones dig a lot deeper into one's lifestyle, intentionally so. The walled garden was constructed to keep outsiders out, but now it seems the primary purpose is keeping those inside hostage.

[analog8374]

My mother-in-law recently became fed up with Windows and asked me to install Linux for her. I gave her Debian with a Mate desktop.

She loves it. Zero problems. It's been a week and she's using it just fine. No lifestyle upheaval.

[onemoresoop]

Your mother in law asked specifically for Linux?

[analog8374]

yes

[stonogo]

Nobody in my life even notices when they change their 'primary operating system.' They buy a phone based on what looks cool at the time, sometimes it's android, sometimes it's iphone. They move freely between chromebooks, windows, and mac os, because everything is online anyway. It's only 'experts' who have trouble with this.

[Hugsbox]

I'm the IT guy to most of the elderly people in my life, and steadily switching them over to Linux Mint over the years. Fact of the matter is, most of them use their OS as a gateway to their web browser, and don't care to do anything else with it. For many non-technical users, switching OSes is literally a non-thing. The only difference vs Windows is that they call me for assistance way less frequently.

[functionmouse]

Are you upgrading their release for them every year or so once it becomes unsupported?

[thisislife2]

Partly agree. I once installed Firefox with uBlock Origin for someone who was Chrome user on an old PC and complained it was slow when browsing, and they told me that they didn't even know that there were different browsers available.

[john_strinlai]

you are telling me that everyone in your life freely swaps between windows and mac without even noticing a difference? no problems?

i call bullshit. i have worked in very big orgs. changing a single icon can cause a deluge of support tickets.

[alnwlsn]

I have family that would gladly use FacebookOS if such a thing existed and automatically loaded that and only that website as soon as you turn on the computer or phone.

[stonogo]

Congrats on your enormous org. The conversation was about families, indicating a non-enterprise environment. Try to keep up.

[MichaelZuo]

You make people sound like they are semi-automatons?

[Muhammad523]

If a 15 years old can do so (me) then other people can do so as well. I did not feel uncomfortable at all when i first installed ElementaryOS and then moved to Fedora. everything just works, i never ever had to worry about drivers or stuff like that

[wink]

I've been using Linux for about 27 years now and yet there are still some things I begrudgingly use Windows for (can also rephrase: one machine that does certain things).

I own more (and have them running right now) machines with linux than anything else and yet I'm not saying people can just switch. The problem is usually not "can do at all costs" but "can do with a reasonable addition of extra steps/relearning/tool does not exist/etc". There's some nuance and when I have some spare time I will (again) try to switch that one machine, but "it just works" maybe can also mean you're not using it for a diverse enough set of things.

In my case the reasons are actually quite boring: some hardware I couldn't get running and some (maybe minor) things that drive me nuts. The hardware is kind of a deal breaker atm. And yes, some people do a lot more weird things at home, my work machines were running Linux for 90% of the time since 2010ish.

[justaman123]

As a 15 year old your mind is flexible in ways that most people's are not. As you get older you will realize the cost of changing the way you are used to doing things. Take advantage of your young brain and try all the things

[misnome]

Also, infinite free time to learn, and no real cost to ongoing work by fucking things up

[bluGill]

Sure. Can you go down my well to replace the pump? Can you figure out what shots my cat needs? Can verify my companies books balances via GAAP? Can you tell me what the correct slump we need to make sure this bridge stands? The list of things I can ask goes on much much longer. In all cases you can learn to do that, but you cannot live long enough to learn to do all of the above.

[norren8]

Personal ability cannot be the universal baseline, sadly

[F7F7F7]

I run Linux across a dozen thin clients and a server class desktop in my home lab. It's rock solid for home assistant, proxmox, routing, etc etc. Set it (hours and hours of work) and forget it exists.

I couldln't imagine having the time to set it up as a daily driver that handles my daily workflows, hardware needs, etc. Terminal in OS X is a close enough approximation out of the box and goes beyond it in DX (IMO) with very little additional setup.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion.

[cguess]

I'mm exactly the same. Fluent in Linux, but you'll pry my MacBook out of my cold dead hands.

[breakingcups]

PopOS completely shit the bed for me on a major version upgrade, left the system is a completely inconsistent state. Luckily I was only trying it out on one (multi-boot) laptop and could easily switch, but it's put me off Pop OS.

[shevy-java]

> If you don't like being oppressed, just move to Antarctica

No - moving to far away areas is not the right analogy. After all you need to have use cases where those huge companies do not control your business. So the alternative is to avoid becoming dependent on them; or cut off the dependency when possible.

[RZelaya]

Fair. I run Nobara on my gaming computer and built a similar dictation tool there with no API restrictions, so the trade-off is real. For this project I chose both: App Store reach for the compliant version, direct distribution for the full one. But I know other people wouldnt be comfortable with running something like that so I built this somewhere my mom could use it

[vanyle]

Centralized package repositories like the one provided by canonical have similar limitations to the Mac App Store, you need to get your app reviewed, you need to push updates to each platform where you distribute your app and in exchange you get visibility.

I'd argue that installing and updating apps on MacOS is simpler than on Linux distros because most apps have built-in auto-updates (or you can just drag the app to the applications folder) instead of having to rely on snap / apt / insert your package manager which may a lot of outdated and unmaintained packages and apps.

[mft_]

Unless... you have a personal or professional need to use apps that don't work on Linux.

I tried very hard to switch to Linux full time some months ago, but I couldn't find a way of getting Microsoft Office to work satisfactorily. There are clever packaged versions of Outlook and Teams, but I need full native installed versions of Word/Excel/Powerpoint, and there just wasn't a good solution. That was a deal breaker, sadly, so I'm back on Mac for the time being.

Other examples would be some of the popular games with anti-cheat that requires Windows.

[lapcat]

You're missing the point: it isn't about the OS. The direct distribution version of the app has full functionality. The problem is with the Mac App Store.

[coldtea]

>This is what happens when you run an OS controlled by some random big corporation

You get a channel for installing apps, where someone vetoes random apps that want to have access to control your whole computer and potentially steal sensitive data?

>Install some GNU/Linux distro and you can do whatever you want.

And any random app can get total control and steal your data, unless you know how to enable restrictions. I'd rather have restrictions as the default, and for the most naive users who'd follow every app prompt, and then cry about their lost work/private documents/money, no way to bypass them.

[realusername]

> I'd rather have restrictions as the default

Then don't install apps and use the web, mobile sandboxing is much weaker compared to any modern browser.

[Danox]

Wrong answer...

[realusername]

How so? The accessibility API which is causing data exfiltration here doesn't even exist on the web.

[coldtea]

It also doesn't exist if you close the computer and take a walk in nature.

But we're talking about a case where you also want/need to use native apps. Not necessarily browser. Even if "it's the same" in this case, not all apps are equally viable as browser pages.

Not to mention performance/privacy/etc wise web apps are a regression.

[realusername]

> Not to mention performance/privacy/etc wise web apps are a regression.

Privacy-wise, web apps are also much better than native apps, less apis to exploit and also you can use an adblocker to kill tracking which as far as I know, doesn't exist on any mobile platform at the moment, even on GrapheneOS (I'm not talking about basic DNS shenanigans but actual automated native tracker removal)

I'd only agree about the performance part and even then, with the regression of mobile performance in the last few years (Material 3 / Liquid glass), it's not as clear cut as it used to be.

> But we're talking about a case where you also want/need to use native apps

Well if it's your only criteria then, the bar to get accepted in your average mainstream Linux repo is much much higher than any current mobile platform.

[Muhammad523]

It's not true that any app can get total control of your system. If you install them via flatpak, the apps are sandboxed. Also, unless you log in as root, the apps can't do much. Wonder why the most important systems in the world and big tech's servers run GNU/Linux? There's a reason

I dont wanna start a war over this btw, even though it may not seem :)

[coldtea]

>Also, unless you log in as root, the apps can't do much.

On a personal computer, they "can't do much" to the things you can trivially re-create by reinstalling anyway. Apps, system files, etc.

They can however do everything to your own files, steal your documents, bank account data, and more.

That a progran run as you without root "can't do much" made sense for multi-user Unix services, not for a personal computer and your own files.

>Wonder why the most important systems in the world and big tech's servers run GNU/Linux? There's a reason

Yes, and it's not because "unless you log in as root, the apps can't do much" on your personal laptop.

[SSLy]

> unless you log in as root, the apps can't do much.

https://xkcd.com/1200/

[detourdog]

Apple is hardly a random big company. Apple's customers specifically chose to purchase the product. Most of their customers don't realize the significance of the exposure to copy and paste between Apps. Apple has taken the position that monitoring this exposure is part of their duty to the customer. Anyone that is aware of this shortcoming in Apple's product is free to purchase a different device.