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by tptacek 23 days ago
So, I'm not sure about your religious background but conversing about this will get tedious very quickly if I have to hedge everything I'm saying, so from the jump let me just say I respect your writing on HN and I assume you're not Catholic, and you can correct me if I'm making any broken assumptions about you.

Also, just to get this out of the way: I said "Chapter 5" was the section full of policy prescriptions, but that was from memory, and, as you've noted, it's "Chapter 3". I agree there's a run in this where he gets pretty prescriptive! But I still think "policy document" is the wrong way to ready this.

Leo goes way out of his way, in the tradition of all Catholic popes over the last century, to ground what he's saying in a long through-line of doctrine. So in both your quotes, about the need for regulation: it's not really about policy.

I think Leo is first espousing a normie view (neither especially "left" nor especially libertarian) about regulation and risk, and then using it as an object lesson about the Catholic principle of Participation. Catholicism is big on ordering and prioritizing relationships between humans. We are supposed to be making decisions together for the Common Good, and we are supposed to recognize that decision-making happens (must happen) at different levels, from the state to local communities to families (this is Subsidiarity).

I flinched at the intellectual property bit too. But the point he's making in context is clear; it's Catholic and Christian doctrine going all the way back to Genesis. The literal named principle "Universal destination of goods" goes back to Vatican 2. The "codification" of these principles happened under Benedict XVI, not my favorite pope (I'm much more to the left than you are) and obviously no squish.

I think you're reading too much American politics into this, for what it's worth. Leo XIV took his name from Leo XIII, who in the late 19th century wrote Rerum Novarum, which was was in part a reaction to Marxist/Socialist thought and totalizing class conflict, recognizes the importance of worker welfare and the dignity of labor, but very specifically does not reject private property (private property is a necessary precondition for the agency of the family unit, which is central to Catholic doctrine). If we dig in I think we'll quickly find a lot of ideas that a doctrinaire leftist would recoil from!

But my big point is that people are all excited to read the Vatican's AI policy document, and the Vatican is uninterested in publishing AI policy; what it wants to do is continue to indoctrinate Catholics on the core tenets of Catholic social doctrine: Subsidiarity, Solidarity, The Common Good, Human Dignity.

1 comments

Thanks. I respect Christianity and feel it has a lot to contribute to the topic of AI, even if not like this, but I'm not a Catholic.

I haven't read the other chapters so will take you at your word about what they say and the Christian agenda in them.

It's tempting to describe the sort of politics in chapter three as US politics because that's roughly where it kicked off first, but there's nothing US specific about it. Leftism has always been a very globally consistent set of beliefs. We wouldn't describe communism as British politics, for example, even though Marx developed his beliefs while living in London and wrote in a British context (Das Kapital is full of references to Parliament and living conditions in 19th century Britain).

What I'd really like to see from the Vatican is engagement with the question of consciousness, and why AI should or should not be considered something with rights. I think a lot of people view this question as obvious but when I studied it, I ended feeling that it's neither obvious nor something that can be answered from first principles. A bit like animal rights, a principled answer essentially requires some kind of religious grounding.