[regexorcist]

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

[simonsan]

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

[vladvasiliu]

> Until you need to repair something or change some hardware

How often does this happen, though? I have a 2013 MBP that still works perfectly. And I'm not even talking about the screen, which is ridiculously better than most new pc laptops. And then, of course, there's the touchpad, which, for some reason, is still unmatched in pc land.

It has 512 GB of SSD and 16 of RAM. This is basically what the new "upgraded" PCs people get at my office. In 2026, 13 years later.

Yeah, I'd use my decade-old mac any day rather than the crappy HPs at work.

[andybp85]

in my day job doing enterprise web apps at a mac shop 16G became unusable for the engineers 3-5 yeas ago. i managed to weasel into them getting me a 64G M1 Pro in 2022 (now they won't buy us any higher than 32G). i'll probably still be using this thing in six years!

to be fair, given the choice between a decade-old macbook and basically any current windows box with same specs, i'd take the macbook every time. but, if i could put linux on it...

[jnovek]

What web stuff are you guys working on that 16GB didn’t cut it a few years ago? I’m not questioning your statement, it’s just completely different world from my day-to-day and I’m curious.

[close04]

Probably building web stuff. This is how you end up with software that needs buckets of RAM. Because the dev never felt the pain. The classic “works on my machine”. Every dev I know works on the beefiest machines they can get their hands on.

[normie3000]

Building web stuff doesn't require crazy hardware. Working on React and Vue apps, 16GB on a 6th gen Intel processor is fine today. Google Docs or Meet are more likely to cause issues.

[swiftcoder]

In my case, the corporate MDM solution consumed so much resources that a 16GB MacBook was basically unusable for dev work (my personal Mac, also with 16GB in those days, was fine)

[musicale]

Likely third-party "security" software.

I can't believe CrowdStrike still exists after they vaporized billions of customer dollars and stranded people for days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_CrowdStrike-related_IT_ou...

[p2detar]

I find it hard to believe that it was due to the MDM? The Apple MDM protocol is embedded in MacOS. Were you using some sort of agent software?

[vladvasiliu]

Indeed. I have an M1 Pro from work, but I honestly can't stand macOS anymore. The machine itself is great, especially the touchpad. And I love the aluminum body. But I hate that empty window chrome eats up half the screen.

But now I'm typing this on a Lenovo P14 something-or-other, under Linux (I run Arch, by the way), and it's an all-around nicer experience than the Mac. The touchpad is somewhat inferior, but good enough. And the screen is actually better: it has a slightly higher resolution, but, most importantly, it's matte. It's not as bright as the Mac, but it's bright enough that I rarely set it above 20-30%. The machine is overall very snappy and quiet, but this is probably more due to my DE not going crazy with animations.

[ramgine]

Thanks for mentioning you use Arch. I would have had to ask otherwise. I’m jk of course

[erooke]

Totally neglects? FTA:

> The Framework is more expensive, slower (in most cases), louder (its fan ramps up quite often), has a pretty poor display, but it is a touchscreen, has a 360° hinge, and is more repairable and upgradeable.

> While the Neo is probably one of the easiest Mac laptops to repair in recent memory, the Framework 12 allows you to upgrade components including a DDR5 SODIMM, 2230-sized NVMe SSD, WiFi card, and even four modular ports around the sides. I outfitted mine with 2x USB-C, 1x USB-A, and 1x full-size HDMI.

[stodor89]

> Until you need to repair something or change some hardware

The overwhelming majority of people would just go buy a new one. The downtime for ordering parts and waiting repairs has a price tag, likely greater than the laptop's price. Maybe that will change with how the prices of everything have been soaring lately.

[culopatin]

By the time something breaks, you’re so far behind in tech that you’re not buying parts for it anymore. I used to be in the “must be able to fix/upgrade” and then realized in practice it never happens.

[SV_BubbleTime]

Of the four frameworks I bought to test. I’ve repaired components from two, a screen and a touchpad both from damage.

But, two other frameworks were totally unacceptable for users, so it wasn’t really a great experiment.

[culopatin]

Of the 6 MacBooks that have circled through my house since 2018 I’ve had to do repairs on 0 of them. 5 are still active

[ece]

Let me guess, no upgrades either.

[culopatin]

Didnt really need any. I’m still using my M1 Pro from when it was released. My mom using the oldest Air now.

[dbg31415]

I’ve had MacBook Pros for as long as they’ve existed and, honestly, I’ve never needed a repair.

The only real issue I’ve had was when I dropped one and destroyed the screen. It was covered by AppleCare, and Apple replaced it.

I usually get a new laptop every 3 to 4 years and pass the old one to family members. My dad is still using one that’s about 10 years old and it works fine for what he needs. No issues.

So the repair argument is a bit hard for me to relate to. I understand things break. But I also think taking reasonable care of your stuff goes a long way. “A stitch in time saves nine,” right?

I guess I’ve replaced the feet on a few of them but that’s a $5 dollar kit from Amazon and a screwdriver and a little bit of glue…

And for normal wear and tear, like battery life, Apple laptops can get a battery replacement through the Apple Store for a pretty reasonable cost.

Anyway, Apple makes good product products that don’t really break from me or my family. I’ve been really happy with all their stuff.

I had way worse luck, for example, building a PC to game on. Two or three years and I had to replace the power supply and I think four years and I had to replace the SSD. Like those things were annoying. I’ve never had hardware from Apple go bad on me.

(Not since I had a Performa 5200 and they had to send somebody out to fix the logic board.)

[kelnos]

Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky? Laptop components do break. I haven't had Mac laptops in a bunch of years, but just off the top of my head I've had a keyboard key break (MacBook Air), and a mainboard die (MacBook Pro).

But if you don't need repairs, you might want upgrades. I have a Framework 13 from 2022 and I expect I won't be buying a full new laptop for many many years. It's great that you've been able to repurpose your old laptops for other family members, but every new laptop manufactured eventually becomes e-waste.

[rbanffy]

The whole selling point of the Framework is easy upgrades, thanks to modularity. It is a laptop that’s designed to be your laptop for at least two or three upgrade cycles, which, for Apple, implies a new laptop.

[spankibalt]

> "It is a laptop that’s designed to be your laptop for at least two or three upgrade cycles, which, for Apple, implies a new laptop."

In all fairness, most Apple users are technically illiterate (hardware-wise). And running upgradeable machines to optimum efficiency necessitates running a redundant setup, e. g. the main bird and a compatible support unit, usually an older one, but capable enough to take over relatively seamlessly for a while, enable diagnostics, facilitate maintenance, and so on.

Most Apple users have only one computer, with their secondary machine the iPhone, itself a neutered simulacrum of a pocket computer, just good enough to do some basic outsourcing of troubleshooting, and to place an order for the next computer of course.

People who gravitate to Frameworks offerings, or similar machines, are just of a completely different mindset than the typical Apple customer. As evidenced by threads like this one. That's also one of the reasons why the F-12 was a misfire. You don't "half-ass" machines built for long-term support. And in this climate, an entry-level LTS machine that's supposed to become popular needed and needs a different approach. Which begins with the form factor.

[itake]

Apple's upgrade cycle (for me) has moved from 4 years to ~6 years.

Maybe upgrading the RAM or HD could be useful, but wear and tear on all components is a bigger concern for me than just one. My laptop is a critical part of my life. I can't risk being out of service for a week while parts arrive.

Its like buying a car... you can repair and maintain it to 200k miles, but the reliability will go down as more things break. Or you can buy a brand new machine to reclaim your time.

[actionfromafar]

Off topic but I think many models of cars, when properly maintained, have very predictable and good reliability.

[itake]

I'm in the same category as dbg31415. I've owned mbps since 2007. Never had any serious issues with them. I kept them for about 4 years each, before upgrading. My 2021 m1 has at least another year left in it.

Certainly if you're in the 0.01% of Apple purchasers that just have a terrible experience (broken device, out of warranty, etc) and one of your largest purchases doesn't work the way you want it, then that is terrible.

but I think the vast majority of Apple users have a stellar experience.

[dsr_]

The 0.01% number is a ridiculous exaggeration.

In a roughly 50 person company with refresh every 3 years, we send a macbook back for repair/replacement roughly three times a year. I would estimate that as a 2% hardware problem rate, 200x higher than what you quote.

2% is satisfactory for corporate use, by the way.

[itake]

Work computers have different usage profiles than personal computers. Employees move their laptop to and from home 5x per week, into offices, use them on trains, buses, etc. Work laptops are used 40+ hours per week. Whereas personal devices are closer to 5-20 hours.

Employees also take worse care of work laptops than their personal machines.

Even in the extremely rare case my device has issues. I can take the device to an apple store in any city I am in and they will hand me a loaner laptop while a professional performs the repair.

If your Framework laptop dies, you have to debug the problem yourself, wait for parts to arrive, and pray that the part you ordered is the only part you need.

[swiftcoder]

> Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky?

It's not that uncommon experience with Apple hardware. I hand my old Macs off to family members, and currently in the house are 2, 4, 8 and 10 year-old MacBooks.

Only thing wrong with any of them is that the 10 year old one only runs about 20 minutes off the charger.

That said, I do skip all the problem models (no butterfly keyboard switches, etc), and ~12 years ago I did need a logicboard replacement under AppleCare

[wand3r]

The author does mention it, they just don't deeply analyze it. Frankly, it goes without saying. If you are considering a framework and reading articles about it, you almost certainly understand the tradeoff and it was mentioned in the article. Given the build quality of Apple and the option to lock in Apple care vs. the insane cost of computer parts, it isn't that important. Especially for an entry level laptop.

[kwdev]

This. Working with a mac again feels so limiting and the amount of stupid UX is actively hurting my productivity. Sure can be just practice, but the ability to customize my Linux machine exactly to how I like to work was so powerful.

There are also what I would call bugs that I don't understand how they are a thing. Like how window/desktop switching is slow to change app focus.

[runeks]

> That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

I'm considering going this way on my M1 MBP. Is there anything you miss wrt. hardware compatibility?

[clircle]

Pro motion and battery life for me

[regexorcist]

Pro motion has been working for a while, you can get 120Hz now.

[klardotsh]

My understanding from a friend who has one of these machines is that while 120Hz works, VRR does not and so the panel can’t clock down to save battery life when you’re just idling staring at a terminal.

(Not that I know all that well how good Linux machines are at clocking down anyway - my XPS and desktop both have VRR panels, but for all I know Niri runs them at full bore at all times - haven’t tried to measure, wouldn’t even know where to start)

[holysoles]

+1 on battery life, though it has been improving: my idle battery usage is a lot better than a year ago.

[pjmlp]

The first error is assuming all UNIXes are Linux distros.

Which is what many folks buying Apple laptops do.

An BSD, Aix, Solaris user would face similar problems.

[mannanj]

Is it possible to use M1's efficiency on Linux, i.e. is battery life comparable for you on Linux vs Mac?

[commandersaki]

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

[thefossguy69]

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops.

For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me.

[majormajor]

> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me.

This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode.

Apple's desktop experience DNA is still, for better or worse, deeply anchored to spatial arrangement of partially-overlapping windows (or non-overlapping, if screen is big enough and window small enough), driven by mouse (Expose hot corners back in 2004 were basically the end-game after which they haven't made any new significant changes to this, and haven't had to). Their full-screen/single-app modes are IMO a weird half-baked Windows-maximize alternative.

But yes, it's a very mouse-oriented, single-desktop spatially-organized-and-layered world.

[minitech]

Not one window, but one application. Which is, yeah, about the worst of both worlds.

[thefossguy69]

>> For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time. Which is certainly true for some workflows, but that's not me.

> This is a very weird-sounding take to someone who has used Macs for three decades and recalls that for most of that time they never even had a full-screen mode.

Sorry about that. I should've clarified better. What I meant was that Apple's opinion of an ideal desktop is closely matching a cluttered desk where only the owner knows the position of something and the focus shifts back and forth from one primary task to another task/interruption.

Edit: typos

[happymellon]

Not sure I agree with this considering they have the double whammy of maximising giving you a new desktop, and also their default behaviour of shuffling your desktops to make sure you're disoriented.

The ideal desktop is a cluttered desk, where only the desk knows where it has stuck your tasks.

[wbadart]

I'm stuck with macOS at work and these have also been the most painful parts of the experience for me. Luckily, I recently found Rectangle[0] and InstantSpaceSwitcher[1]. The former gives keyboard based arranging (though not focus; still just use cmd+tab for that) while the latter gives instant transitions between virtual desktops (including shortcuts for navigating directly to a target, rather than sliding over sequentially).

[0]: https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle

[1]: https://github.com/jurplel/InstantSpaceSwitcher

Recent discussion on the latter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47708818

[roryirvine]

Oh, wow, thanks for that pointer to InstantSpaceSwitcher - looks like it might help with my biggest annoyance.

I have "reduced motion" switched on, so don't get the animated transition - instead there's a brief fade, followed by a few seconds where any input is silently ignored. So, if anything, it's even shoddier.

Honestly, the modern MacOS experience feels slightly worse than Linux from 20 years ago.

[altcognito]

It is bizarro. With multi monitor sometimes I click windows and things don’t show. Dragging when more than one dialog is open is unpredictable. The corners are huge, even when maximized. Even the vaunted application bar is so weird - and windows is trying to copy it! Why can’t we use the entire bottom of the screen? Apps don’t show there anyway! You can’t get rid of it and replace it with something else? Just not allowed.

Stretch an app across two monitors? Not with that config! Display port? Oh no! Scaling cleanly? Never heard of it.

Seriously bad stuff. I’ve thought about writing a book with everything wrong with it. It’s bonkers.

[tonyedgecombe]

>You can’t get rid of it and replace it with something else?

You can hide it. I rarely use it as I use a launcher.

[nottorp]

> The corners are huge, even when maximized.

Upgraded to Mac OS 26?

> You can hide it. I rarely use it as I use a launcher.

Cmd+Space, type first letters of application name, enter.

[altcognito]

I definitely use this, but if you want to navigate to specific window on an app, prepare to be annoyed.

MacOS doesn't really have a window manager, it has an app switcher, and a really inconvenient way to pick the context of your workspace.

[wwalexander]

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts

Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i...

You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

[thefossguy69]

>> > cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts > Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i...

The first link is about arranging/tiling the windows. There are zero keyboard shortcuts to move the focus from the window on left to the window on right. It looks like someone used the equivalent of monitor codenames for keyboard shortcuts. Some operations don't even have a keyboard shortcut.

Additionally, while it does show how tiling is performed on macOS, tiling is not treated as a serious feature of the desktop. When "tiling" is used in context of window managers on Linux and BSDs, it implies that the windows are tiled automatically by the WM. It is done for several purposes, but ones that are important to me are:

1. Determinism (for the lack of a better word) of window placement. When I open n^th window, I know where to move my eyes. At the moment, this is arbitrary-ish on macOS. 2. Not having to tile every window manually. I only do this when I have a specific layout in mind. Default tiling behaviour can be configured by the WM's config file(s). At the moment, on macOS, I need to be explicit in tiling every window. 3. Keyboard oriented traversal between tiled windows. This is an extremely important part of a tiling WM. I can move my window or just the focus anywhere, without ever needing to reach for my mouse. Granted, I'm not a superhuman who can take advantage of this speed but I like control over my navigation of the desktop I am interacting with.

None of these are satisfied by macOS natively. Unless some app/plugin is used, which has no guarantee of working in future if Apple wishes to break something. On Linux, this is not the case, the WM is part of the desktop, even more so on Wayland.

> You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

This is about setting keyboard shortcuts for custom actions for applications, not window traversal on the desktop. Something like Ctrl+Left and Ctrl+Right which moves the focus between virtual desktops, but for the current desktop, moving the focus between the windows. I am not aware of this being possible at the moment.

[spockz]

You can use Rectangle to get all that what you want in terms of tiling.

Moving between windows of the same app is cmd+~. Cmd-tab moves to another app, remaining on the same desktop if that has a window there.

The delay in focus can be reduced by turning off animations in “accessibility”.

Regardless, I’m with you on that everything is way more snappy on my Linux machine. Even if it’s running a “full” WM/DM like KDE.

[wwalexander]

> This is about setting keyboard shortcuts for custom actions for applications, not window traversal on the desktop.

The "All Applications" section lets you define global shortcuts. As long as there is a menu bar item for it (in this case, one from the Window menu) you can define a shortcut for it.

[Nitrolo]

I've recently been given a MacBook for work for the first time and this was driving me crazy, thank you!

Now I just need to figure out how to make Word stick to these commands and not decide that right half of the screen means the right 3/4 of the screen.

[happymellon]

I don't see moving a window to another desktop which, for a multi-desktop environment, seems far more basic than setting to the left or right.

I've always had to use 3rd party tools to achieve this.

[darkteflon]

Aerospace is excellent: https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace

Can’t imagine going back.

[thefossguy69]

Interesting. I used to daily drive <https://github.com/asmvik/yabai> for almost a year until a major macOS update broke it and I just didn't have it in me to diagnose the issue. I'll bookmark this for future adventures, thanks!

[musicale]

> horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts

Window focus shortcut: System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Keyboard

Other window shortcuts: System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Windows

See "Keyboard focus shortcuts" etc. at: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650

And: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i...

[musicale]

s/Preferences/Settings/

[qmr]

Check spectacle app

[pjerem]

Wow, this feature is so broken on macOS (I have a family shared Air M2) since at least a full decade that it's really not what I would have take as an example.

OTOH, switching users on Gnome or KDE login managers is flawless.

[glenstein]

Pretty sure Linux has had this capability since the 90s.

[treve]

Linux had this well before OS X

[wpm]

Does it still or was it another of the things cut in Wayland?

[regexorcist]

Do you and OP even know what you are referring to?

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Display_manager

[treve]

Still does. On gnome you can switch via the lock screen.

[rbanffy]

I miss the 3D cube and the wobbly windows.

[tiberious726]

Install the plasma add-ons package if you're on KDE, I'm sure there's still something around for gnome too.

Burning windows away on close is my favorite