| HN Mirror

JuniperMesos 15 days ago

There have been many elections in many political entities where a politician got elected because one group of citizens really liked that politician; and another group of citizens thought that politician was extremely, historically bad. This is inherent to mass democracy itself in any polity where there are real and deep-seated differences between different groups of the electorate. "A Trump" - in the sense of a politician whose opponents describe in apocalyptic terms and consider that politician's supporters to be stupid and bigoted - gets elected all the time in all sorts of places.

True. But we seem like the least trustworthy people on earth at the moment. After israel, anyway.

Trump has nothing to do with it.

datsci_est_2015 15 days ago

> Trump has nothing to do with it.

Genuinely, what makes the US untrustworthy if not Trump? I’m curious what I may be missing.

noir_lord 14 days ago

The seventy odd million people who looked at Trump and everything he is and then voted for him.

The entire congress and senate of the US who sit by while he does this and the supreme court who lets him, entire departments of the US government co-opted by sycophants put in place by Trump.

There is little to trust in the United States at the moment, you look a lot like the Weimar republic.

datsci_est_2015 14 days ago

I guess I internally equate “Trump” and “Trumpism” - who’s to say what the chicken and the egg is with that whole situation.

> The entire congress and senate of the US who sit by while he does this and the supreme court who lets him, entire departments of the US government co-opted by sycophants put in place by Trump.

It is amazing how much people bend the knee to further their own ends. People like Stephen Miller who probably see Trump as a useful idiot, and hold great contempt for him, as long as he can enact his white supremacist agenda.

The leftist circles I run in like to joke that this could’ve just been properly avoided if we hadn’t fumbled reconstruction as a nation.

LtWorf 15 days ago

Remember the guy who promised he'd shut down Guantanamo? Or the guy who made up some weapons so he could invade Irak? Or the guy who ordered Northstream to be blown up?

> Genuinely, what makes the US untrustworthy if not Trump?

We invaded Korea, and then Vietnam, and a few hundred other interventions that don't seem to be sanctioned by the international community. All because of a hardon for ideology that doesn't seem to actually reflect the interests of the people who live here.

red-iron-pine 15 days ago

> We invaded Korea

what a terrible bad faith arguemnt

N Korea invaded the south and the UN voted to create a joint force in there to defend it.

stickfigure 15 days ago

Not only is this true, there are about 50 million people in the south who are incredibly grateful for US involvement. And about 26 million people in the north who are, on average, several inches shorter than the southerners due to the end of US involvement.

The people in the north aren't worked to death tho

We forcibly inserted our forces onto a peninsula to support a state that exterminated hundreds of thousands of people that nominally opposed it. If you want to call this something other than invasion that's your choice. We can all judge what character your faith takes

Most of those were sanctioned by the international community. Look at the participants.

We had the international community on a leash after WWII. This means nothing.

Leash or not, there was international support as a fact.

Israel seems trustworthy in the sense that their priorities and aims are abundantly clear to everyone. People are pissed about Israel for Iran right now, but, I mean, there is a reason why they are attacking Iran right now and not Egypt or Turkey. You go about and poke the bear like Iran has done for decades with Israel, you get these outcomes. Egypt tried to poke the bear but that was decades ago and they've since learned there is nothing to gain there.

Hey that's up to you. I will never vote for a person who supports Israel. Our parents may have been retarded but we don't have to be. I just see a state devoted to slaughtering as many people as they can. Iran looks like a saint compared to them.

I'm not supportive of them either. I just don't consider them untrustworthy though. Everything they do is exactly what they've always done since that state was formed. Easily the most predictable nation on earth, Israel. Easy way to get Israel off your back though? Stop funding terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah that inevitably do something stupid to provoke the Israelis into armed conflict. It is really that simple.

True. Israel begins, Israel assassinates and complains about being targeted by terrorism. Israel begins the loop again. What is more reliable than Israel?

Iran would be a better ally. China would be a better ally. Fucking Russia would be a better ally. Why did we decide to die on the hills of (loosely translated, I guess) mageddo?

But instead our state leans into exterminating people because our PR team was inspired by Goebbels and was trained to hate muslims

It is like a modern day state of Prussia. A beachhead and airstrip in the middle east. Weapons manufacturing. Rocket science. A cyber security firm. An intelligence agency. Some of the best in the world at these things. All wrapped up into one. This is why nations like to ally with Israel.

But again, if you don't want problems with Israel don't make problems with Israel. Their populace is militarized like few other and seemingly with a lot of political cohesion. Egypt has learned not to poke the bear. So has Jordan.

watwut 15 days ago

I mean, you dont know much about Iran, I guess. Like, it is a victim in this was and Israel is apartheid state.

None of that makes Iran better, not even now as they still execute daily. And are extremely harsh to own minorities. Oh, and to whole one gender.

Iran looks like saint when you ignore Iran actions. And again, yes, the war was bad decision.

gchamonlive 15 days ago

Nobody is buying this narrative of Israel being provoked, because the reaction to the provocation, if there ever was one, is completely disproportional.

Israel had settlements in Palestine way before the conflict outbreak, and nothing explains the systematic targeting of civilian infrastructure on Lebanon but for Israel just going supernova, like Germany and Japan back then.

bluGill 15 days ago

Israel's faults do not mean they were not provoked. Iran has been sending everything they can to anyone who wants to harm Israel.

What Israel has done is a completely irrelevant to what Iran has been doing.

ImPostingOnHN 15 days ago

> What Israel has done is a completely irrelevant to what Iran has been doing.

It's certainly easy to say "X provoked Y, ignore what Y did first to provoke X".

gchamonlive 14 days ago

I'm sure there was provocation, but we are taking about nations with extremely long recorded memory, so this back and forth of who did what goes back countless generations. It's utterly disastrous to go through this line of thinking when there are millions of civilians either dead or displaced and vulnerable.

watwut 15 days ago

Trump can be voted in everywhere, but american constitution makes curruption effectively legal, president effectively lawless and provides no balance to unchecked presidential power. Money in politics are speech, so just unlimited, so any person even having change to be president have to do what Epstein class like.

And it is constitution itself. America had lawd trying to deal with above and supreme court gutted them.