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by dd36 17 days ago
End consolidation. Go back to pre-1980s antitrust policy. Encourage competition and bust the trusts.
3 comments

Statutory antitrust regulation would be fantastic. Instead of litigation, the regulators, corporations, and shareholders know when a business must split or divest. The firm files a plan, it gets approved, everyone wins except monopolists.
Progressive business taxes. At a certain income level, natural pressure starts mounting to split.
Not a bad idea honestly. Would be interesting to see how it affects tech companies since they rely on hypergrowth. My one worry is that instead of divesting they would just play shell games with complex ownership structures.
Most big tech could relatively easily split into meaningful separate entities. These are all going to be contentious, but ...

Looking at the companies on the top image for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech ... it's outdated, but close enough.

Apple: Computers, Phones, maybe even break out Operating Systems

Microsoft: Hardware, Gaming, Operating Systems, Office/other software, Cloud Services, Consulting

Alphabet: Google Search, Ads, Android, Chrome, Cloud Services, Other consumer services, Waymo

Amazon: Retail, Warehouse, Shipping, Cloud Services

Tesla: Cars, Batteries, Charging Network, Solar, Scammy bullshit

Berkshire Hathaway: it's a holding company, spin out the big holdings

Nvidia (this one is tougher): Ethernet, Video Cards, AI cards; maybe chipsets vs cards?

Meta: Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. Or ... split out the internal Cloud Services from the frontends.

TSMC: I dunno what to do here, but it's also not a US corp, so yeah. You could spin off fabs by node maybe.

United Health: not a tech company, but Insurance (possibly spin out regionally), Regional Healthcare Providers, Pharmacy Stuff

There's potential to break up some of the other companies along regional lines, like the Baby Bells ... but IMHO, that doesn't make that much sense for most of these.

Have some sort of phase-in, but if ownership between formerly related companies remains similar, contracts between them need to be a) public, b) terms must be available to others (FRAND). For cases where the spun-off companies are still market dominant (a lot of what I've suggested), constrain the company from entering other markets; this doesn't end the monopoly, but it prevents using one dominant position to establish another.

elaborate on this line of thought please.
Not OP but a progressive tax generally scales non-linearly to tax higher brackets a higher %. So then you have an increasingly lower / decreasing incentive to make even more money.

Many countries already have a progressive tax on income, but that is irrelevant to business profits.

Yep, exactly. There's an easy way to make it gradual, too: put the "heel" of the progressive tax above where the largest American companies are and let inflation bring them into the curve. They can either pay a tax cost not to split, or they can split.

Alternatively, don't. I expect this proposal to be popular with executives regardless because it creates new spots for executives, just as it does with lower-flying labor.

The pre 1980s standards were ridiculous though. However, even if the US moves to some 3 quarters of the way towards now would be a huge improvement.

The "consumer harm" standard is idiotic.

I don’t see how they were ridiculous on the face it. The economy during that regulatory period grew into a huge juggernaut.

Most of the R&D that laid the future of the world happened during that period. The middle class grew to its largest portion during that period.

I don’t think the economy was hamstrung in the least

Rose colored glasses.

The classic example is airline deregulation which happened under Carter. The real cost of flights is way, way down since then. But this doesn't stop people from complaining about how "flying is a worse experience now" and wishing for a return to inane regulations.

I want more expensive flights because the rabble shouldn’t be flying. Flying is a worse experience now and cheap flights like spirit is how you get the Burger King crown guy being a common occurrence on flights.
Were you alive in the 80s? Flying really was better back then. The food was edible. The seats weren't optimized for torture.

"Inane regulations", however misguided, generally exist to prevent the Torment Nexus. PE devolves companies into the Torment Nexus to create more profit.

I'm aware that flying was more enjoyable pre reform. And we could make it that enjoyable today by inflating the prices by 50-100%. The food would be better, the seats would be bigger, and planes would be emptier.

But the downside is that flying would be for rich people, just like it was pre-reforms. The poors would have to take trains or drive. Is that a good trade-off?

And to top it off, if you want to pay for a premium flying experience today, you can! For similar prices (to pre-reform flights, in real terms) you can book a "luxury flight".

Like I said, rose colored glasses.

> I don’t think the economy was hamstrung in the least

post WW2 the world basically outside of the US blew up and the US pumped a ton of money into europe+asia to bolster it.

it's easy to be #1 when everything else burnt down

Would you share a more detailed argument? Right now we only have adjectives: "ridiculous", "idiotic".

The US economy generally did very well with those standards, maybe the best it ever did, especially considering distribution of benefits.

This is a good podcast on the old regime: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/696337392

Summary of the old regime: Mergers that lead to 5+% market share were blocked.

Then the "consumer harm in terms of prices" was adopted. Which swung the pendulum the other way. That is the fundamental economic policy now. Which has lead to abhorrent results.

I wrote a comment on previous post that was about how consumer harm standards have warped the discussion on tariffs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48096236

> The US economy generally did very well with those standards

Spurious correlation. Few experts (economists) think old regulations caused economic growth.

If we really want to recreate post-war growth, we should destroy half our infastructure and fight a world war. Then, in the years following the end of that war, we can experience catch-up growth.

Spurious strawperson.

I didn't say they caused it, but they sure didn't stop it.

I specifically said it was about distribution, not aggregate growth.

There's still no argument for the GGP presented.

> the years following the end of that war

Until the 1980s? I think some evidence is needed.

How will that work - for example Y Combinator classes. They cannot be acquired? What about acquihires? Cant stop that - employees have their own agency.
> How will that work - for example Y Combinator classes. They cannot be acquired?

For the record: national economic policy shouldn't revolve around Y Combinator classes and similar startups.

I'm totally fine if it turns out a sensible antitrust policy completely destroys the acquisition exit pathway for tech startups. I'm not saying one will, but I'm saying that's a cost I'm willing to pay.

YC startups could just become mature businesses. Nothing wrong with providing a good service, earning a good profit, and employees maturing into stable careers.
But we can't have that because then we'd be wasting potential profit. /s
> I'm totally fine if it turns out a sensible antitrust policy completely destroys the acquisition exit pathway for tech startups.

And it should also prevent the acquihire.

I think the really important question is HOW this will happen. If you mean for the state to buy them at fair market value, nobody will object to that, not even if it closes the door to private equity.

But that's not what you're talking about, is it?

How about doing what America used to do? Provide seed funding for a new fire truck company in trade for condictions. Can we agree to do that? Fund 3 companies to make fire trucks, fast-track whatever certification and approvals they need. Create the companies we need, risking (and in fact expecting to lose) a bunch of the capital used for this.

YComb was just an example, though. Should companies be able to be bought and sold at all? My opinion is yes. Agree or disagree?
The OP explicitly answers this: go back to pre-80s antitrust policy. Companies can be bought and sold but not if it creates concentrations of economic power that allow them to dictate prices to vendors or customers.
This is vague and not actionable. Should Microsoft and Amazon have been able to buy Anthropic and OpenAI 5 years ago?

People always give these vague guidelines (and even the guidelines in the 80s were) and wonder why they are easily circumvented.

This is actually how anti-trust works - if you decide a company gets too big you Ma Bell it and break it up, its very actionable, just hard.
There's nothing ambiguous about it at all. We had it as our public policy for generations and then bought-off politicians stopped enforcing it.

The information is captured the same way as most policy - via statute and precedent, and guidelines for enforcement agencies.

None of this is confusing, or even hard, except insofar as it's hard to fight against well funded opponents.

> This is vague and not actionable. Should Microsoft and Amazon have been able to buy Anthropic and OpenAI 5 years ago?

No, because if we had proper anti-trust they already would have both been broken up years ago.

Microsoft and Amazon should have been restricted, due to their monopoly power, long before 5 years ago.

I've read enough of the pre-Borkian (ie, pre-1980s) history of antitrust law to know this was very actionable.

They were not easily circumvented in that it required decades of funding and activism to nerf the Sherman Antitrust Act and its successors.

How is going back to a policy that used to work "vague and unactionable"? It literally had been actionable.
> Should Microsoft and Amazon have been able to buy Anthropic and OpenAI 5 years ago?

Antitrust enforcement can be done retroactively as well, if it appears that a large company abuses its financial firepower to undercut competitors or a marketshare gets too dominant.

It was absolutely actionable and implemented as policy for decades, what are you even talking about? Your phrasing pretends this isn’t exactly how antitrust enforcement worked before the much more recent approach began.
But "corporations are people" and those types of markets have closed since 1865 in the united states.
Why do you present this as a binary to agree/disagree with?
Simply because that is the maximally reduced case and it inevitably will result in the same situation.
> that is the maximally reduced case

It sure is.

> and it inevitably will result in the same situation

Why?

If the acquirer has too big or dominant position already in the specific sector no. They should not be able to sweep the board of all companies doing single thing.
If the acquirer attempts to acquire a startup (regardless of investor) for anti trust reasons, or there are anti trust concerns, the M&A activity is disallowed by regulators. A recent example is Figma and Adobe.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Seems vague. What is an anti trust reason? Figma and Adobe id a great example. Both are doing very poorly.
What definition of success are we using that having over $7 billion in net income after expenses in 2025, and nearly $2 billion so far this year, is "doing very poorly"?

2025 numbers: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/796343/0000796343250...

2026 Q1 numbers: https://mlq.ai/stocks/ADBE/q1-2026-earnings/

Their joint market cap
I am not an anti trust enforcer or scholar, so I'm going to defer to experts in the field: Lina Khan, Matt Stoller, etc. That is the point of experts in a domain.
Given the vagueness it is no surprise nothing happens.
It's not vague. You can go look it up.
Everything is vague to you. All you're doing is concern trolling for monopolists
It really is sad that any disagreement with “pe is bad” means i am concerned trolling. Ever consider the guidelines are actually vague which is why usa keeps failing in attempts to enforce?
> Ever consider the guidelines are actually vague which is why usa keeps failing in attempts to enforce?

Your cause and effect is wrong.

The US doesn't fail to attempt to enforce, the gov representatives often get paid to not enforce by said corporations who have been allowed to put money into their campaign for election/reelection.

Don’t confuse the nature of the feedback you’re receiving here. Your comments in this thread are so obstinate and so far from this forum’s standards of good faith argument that community members can’t help but perceive you as a troll.

Nobody likes this state of affairs so we are asking you to stop strawmanning and start steelmanning the posts you are responding to.

You are clearly not dumb, so stop responding to the dumbest possible and easiest to dismiss interpretation of other people’s comments and instead go deeper

I think 5-15 person employee businesses do not concern trust busters.
Whats the connection between the number of employees and anti trust? Also, there are plenty of YC companies with far more than 15 employees.
Generally you don't hold a market dominant position in any sector that anti-trust regulators care about at 15 employees?

Frankly this stuff is impossible to talk about in the abstract. The details of every individual case matters. If you're actually curious (instead of just playing a shell game), you can go look up the types of analysis that FTC does to evaluate market dominance and whether a given transaction will excessively consolidate a market.