[streetfighter64]

Incredibly privileged take to claim that using Windows is somehow beneath your "dignity". Do you have any idea at all of the kinds of jobs people are doing in the real world?

Imagine the daycare worker taking care of your kids or the truck driver bringing your food saying "getting frustrated creates stress, that's unhealthy and makes for a hostile work environment".

[em-bee]

i live in a developing country. from my perspective, anyone who has access to a computer is privileged.

Imagine the daycare worker taking care of your kids or the truck driver bringing your food saying "getting frustrated creates stress, that's unhealthy and makes for a hostile work environment".

what's your point? if you get frustrated with my kids then you are in the wrong profession or you need more training. as a parent i am not allowed to get frustrated with my kids either. if you get frustrated with my delivery, then i am sorry, and if i was the cause, i apologize. tell me what went wrong and i'll do better next time. if it was something else, you have my sympathies. i'll do my best to not make it any worse.

working in a stress free environment is not a privilege, it's a human right. nobody deserves to be mistreated at work, or be stressed by other peoples expectations (which is a form of mistreatment, or, dare i say, abuse).

[streetfighter64]

Taking care of kids or driving in heavy traffic is 10x more stressful than using windows. If you claim you never get frustrated by your kids or traffic, then you must be the perfect person, good job.

> working in a stress free environment is not a privilege, it's a human right. nobody deserves to be mistreated at work, or be stressed by other peoples expectations (which is a form of mistreatment, or, dare i say, abuse)

Seriously? Having expectations is abuse? Since students get stressed by exams and deadlines, education is nothing but abuse then?

And having a stress free environment is a human right? It'd be nice if the world worked that way, but it's as absurd as saying "never stubbing your toe is a human right".

[em-bee]

Taking care of kids or driving in heavy traffic is 10x more stressful than using windows.

i don't know about driving because i don't drive, but i disagree that taking care of children is stressful. i am a stay at home dad. i have taken care of my kids from birth, and we frequently have kids of relatives and friends in our house.

i never once felt stressed by kids. stress is something that for me is only caused by expectations of others. kids behavior is natural, there is no reason to get stressed.

now of course everyone is different, and perhaps i am simply more resilient and i don't get easily stressed, but that's also why i can demand a stress free environment, because actually what is stress free for me, may be very stressful for you, meaning that my expectations of a stress free environment may be a lot lower than they would be for you.

Having expectations is abuse?

causing stress is abuse.

students get stressed by exams and deadlines

i don't. not by the exam or the deadlines themselves. i only get stressed by people's reactions on how i perform. and that is an important distinction. because regardless of how i perform you can decide to accept my performance or be disappointed. only that disappointment and how you express it causes stress for me. but your reaction is under your control, so it is possible for you to react in a way that it does not cause me any stress. you could for example be encouraging to do better next time instead of being disappointed. and that is all i am asking for.

another way to look at it, stress is caused by things that are not under my control. and that is mostly other peoples behavior. or, to get back to the original topic, by the unpredictable behavior of LLMs.

[smcg]

Bob forbid someone have standards

[streetfighter64]

There's nothing wrong with Taylor Swift taking a private jet instead of a 20 minute drive, she just has "standards".

No, obviously if everybody had those same unreasonable standards the world wouldn't work at all. So all of the privileged elites should probably be grateful that us plebs with "lower standards" exist.

[em-bee]

unreasonable standards

what is a reasonable standard and what is dignified and what isn't is really the question. taking a private jet is clearly an unreasonable standard. living healthy (stress is a health hazard) should not be unreasonable.

[antonvs]

I didn't see them say anything about dignity. They said using Windows makes them angry, which is understandable. That speaks to a poor user experience design. Framing it as a privilege issue is blaming the victim.

[em-bee]

I didn't see them say anything about dignity

actually, i did, and i stand by it. working with a system that makes you angry is undignified.

it's a reference to a quote that i can't find the source for which roughly goes like this: *why i use linux and not windows? i could also rob banks and ..., but you have to keep a certain amount of dignity". the original of that quote was in german.

[streetfighter64]

I'll say, I quite hope the AI comes for your job so you'll have a chance to experience one of those "undignified" jobs you look down on so much.

[em-bee]

you have no idea. as a software developer the job market is already very bad, so your wish is already reality.

but i don't see any undignified jobs as alternative here either. what should that be?

taxi/bus driver? food delivery? sweeping streets? work as a plumber (apparently they are in demand in western countries)? i can't see anything undignified about that. even cleaning toilets isn't undignified. it has to be done.

maybe it can be argued that working as a prostitute is undignified. at least if it is not done voluntary. and of course bad working conditions are undignified.

but again, all of these jobs can be structured such that they don't cause stress and that they can be done with dignity.

so what really is an undignified job?

there is only one more category of undignified work that just came to mind: jobs where i am contributing to the exploitation of others. i once worked in a software company that had a customer that was running a sportsbetting website. in itself the work was not undignified, we used linux, and all the good software practices, but contributing to a gambling website just felt wrong.

people also consider the exploitation of users done by meta/facebook, google etc, as undignified. but those jobs have the same problem with dignity that using windows has, so i don't think they are what you have in mind.

[streetfighter64]

"The victim" of using a certain operating system? Please.

Being lucky enough to work in a comfortable air-conditioned office, AND having the luxury of declining jobs sorely because the operating system makes you angry, is the height of privilege.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and realize how good you have it.

> I didn't see them say anything about dignity.

The word dignity was used twice in the comment I replied to...

[ryandrake]

I wouldn’t put it in terms of dignity or victimhood, but Windows definitely feels weird and foreign if you are dumped into it after using Macs and Linux and bash for 20 years. I had to help someone do a little maintenance on a Windows system the other day and I realized that I had basically forgotten how to do anything on it. I couldn’t even remember how to delete a directory tree. Online tutorials recommended to do some things in “Powershell” whatever the hell that is, and that was even more bizarre. I’ve never felt more useless in front of a computer than I did just trying to remove and install some software from the Windows command line.

[Wicher]

> "The victim" of using a certain operating system? Please.

Perhaps "victim" in the sense of not having much choice/agency? Neither in the choice of operating system (due to sparsely restrained anticompetitive behaviour of incumbents over decades) nor in how they're treated (entrapped) by the operating systems. The OSes are really POS (point of sale) terminals for media and cloud services.

Thus consider most operating system users aren't really users. They're "usees", they're being used. One could surmise that the Microsoft/Apple/Google shareholders are the real users of the operating systems.

If you'd left the commercial OS world in the Win2K/OSX 10.4 era for, say, Gentoo Linux, and would come back now to look over someone's shoulder while they're using (or rather, being used by) their operating systems, you could be forgiven for coming away with the impression that some kind of authority inversion has taken place in the meantime.

[streetfighter64]

Nobody works by choice so I suppose that makes us all "victims" of the system. I'd put using certain software below many worse kinds of suffering however

[em-bee]

Nobody works by choice

not true. anybody working as a volunteer works by choice. i work by choice, because i could instead live in germany on unemployment support and welfare, because i am to old to find a job (germany has a big problem with age discrimination) and the government can't force me to work as a selfemployed freelancer. so i choose to work because i want to. not because i have to.

at least in germany i can't think of anyone being forced to work in a job that would cause them suffering. well, except working with windows, and hence from that perspective a worse kind of suffering is quite unlikely.

that aside, almost all suffering comes from how people are treated at work. the days of people suffering in coalmines or other seriously unhealthy work conditions with out any alternative are over. anyone there still suffering at work today is being actively exploited by abusive business owners. yes, the people working there may not have a choice, but we as a society do have the choice to not tolerate such working conditions, and therefore making such demands is not privileged.

[streetfighter64]

Wow. Well it's a very gracious choice of you to not mooch off the welfare system.

> at least in germany i can't think of anyone being forced to work in a job that would cause them suffering. well, except working with windows

You must be actually trolling. You'd honestly choose stocking shelves in a supermarket over being a windows sysadmin? Have you ever heard of RSI? Or actually ever worked a day of physical labor in your life?