[threethirtytwo]

But the technology that outputs decisions can also output reasoning that justifies such decisions.

When a judge or a jury outputs a decision THEY are also a black box and you can only evaluate said decisions on reasoning THEY also output.

I’m not taking a side here. I’m just saying this reasoning is flawed.

[jimbokun]

It’s a black box in the sense that we know the process used by LLMs to “reason” is very different than how humans reason and make decisions.

The whole point of “jury of your peers” is that your guilt or innocence is being decided by people with common life experience to you and thus the possibility of empathy and judging you fairly.

[threethirtytwo]

We only know it’s different. But we don’t know how it reasons or how humans reason. Just because it is different doesn’t make his black box argument valid. It remains invalid despite your new irrelevant point.

Ignore the fluff. Focus on the logic and stay rational. The black box argument is not at all valid.

[jimbokun]

We know other humans reason something like us because we know how we ourselves reason through the most direct experience possible and know that our fellow humans are very similar to us.

[threethirtytwo]

We know the LLM can be similar because we train it on data from us as well. We also know the LLM can be different, but we also know humans are different too.

Examples like psychopaths tells us how different humans can be. It’s all black boxes.

[jimbokun]

This is dumb.

The way a psychopath’s brain works will be far more similar to another human brain than an LLM will.

[threethirtytwo]

Right so you prefer psychopaths over LLMs to make the decision? Be real. How similar it is, is irrelevant.

You're STILL wrong on the black box argument. Humans are still black boxes. And btw, you said this is "dumb" what you're really implying is that * I * am dumb. But look very hard at the logic in your argument. I think it's categorically factual that the only dumbass here is actually you. I'm not gonna hide this behind some "This is dumb" passive aggressive bullshit. YOU are dumb.

[riccardomc]

No, your reasoning is flawed: a judge or a jury is voted, appointed or selected through a process which is the result of centuries civilization, norms and legislation. As corrupt it might be in some cases, it is expression of mankind.

They are not a black box, they passed rigourous examinations and they stick to principles enshrined in constitutions and laws.

Technology, or better, the productization of it, is instead the result of the interest of very few powerful individuals or corporations and aggressive product market fit iterations.

The bullish discourse around the PMF loop says that this is good because it is better at solving people's problems. But after a few decades it is obvious there's a gigantic risk the process actually exploits people's problems instead of actually solving them.

[treis]

The system doesn't stick to principles enshrined in the constitution and law. Often or usually it does. Certainly not always. Theoretically there are other humans to force them to when they stray but that's gated behind 10s of thousands to appeal and is up against a system designed first to protect itself.

It also ignores the reality of going to a jury. Yes you have the right to trial by jury. But the price to exercise that right is to risk an much much more severe punishment, a lot of money, and a lot of time.

There's also tremendous upside here. Think getting a letter from your landlord withholding $2,000. Upload it to JudgeGPT for your jurisdiction and instantaneously find out it's legal.

[threethirtytwo]

Your argument is just additional validations upon a stated fact that a jury and a judge is still a black box. Your retort is factual but illogical because it does not invalidate my point.

All humans are black boxes and the black box argument is completely invalid just like your statement. In fact your statement illustrates the downfall of human intuition. You could not logically invalidate my point so you descended into side channels that’s not far off from “hallucinations.”

[riccardomc]

Judges and juries are expressions of society and accountable to it. They're not a black box.

Late-stage capitalist tech products left unchecked exploit human problems for profit.

If you cannot see the difference and the flaw in your argument I am afraid you're too far gone.

[threethirtytwo]

Unless you can read minds they are a black box. They are only expressions of society because the inputs and outputs into these people are from society and similar to society. But the same can be said of LLMs. Your reasoning is irrational.