[kakacik]

Or you can simply move to a country that actually apreciates you and doesnt treat you like unwanted subhuman garbage. We have few in Europe, with QoL and happiness higher than US average, sometimes much higher. Just dont make the mistake of comparing salaries directly, US is massively more expensive if you plan to stay long term (ie healthcare) and/or have kids.

You would also have enough time to actually enjoy life, not just work till death/health issues come in some empty prestige rat race.

[sssilver]

Most people come here for the economic and professional opportunities. I imagine that very few people move to the United States for the lifestyle.

Where else would people get opportunities that could match the United States? I can't think of any country that would even come close.

[pixelatedindex]

> Where else would people get opportunities that could match the United States? I can't think of any country that would even come close.

Isn’t that comparative?

If you are in the EU then the US seems like a holy grail because pay is higher. If you have dual citizenship you can probably avail of the EU safety nets if you had to go back.

If you’re in South East Asia, any EU choice is a huge improvement. Lately there has been strong immigration to Germany for example instead of coming to the US.

After naturalization and giving up my original citizenship, I am a little envious of people with dual citizenship of US + any EU country. It really doesn’t get better than that.

[JuniperMesos]

> If you are in the EU then the US seems like a holy grail because pay is higher. If you have dual citizenship you can probably avail of the EU safety nets if you had to go back.

One of the reasons pay in the US is higher is because the EU taxes ordinary people fairly heavily to pay for those social services. But also because of systematic cultural differences between the US and EU that lead to the US having a more dynamic economy that generally pays people more.

> If you’re in South East Asia, any EU choice is a huge improvement. Lately there has been strong immigration to Germany for example instead of coming to the US.

Lately Alternative für Deutschland has been getting a lot of votes in Germany; what kinds of rules (on top of the existing ones) do they think should be in place for people in southeast asia trying to immigrate to Germany?

[Longhanks]

> Lately Alternative für Deutschland has been getting a lot of votes in Germany; what kinds of rules (on top of the existing ones) do they think should be in place for people in southeast asia trying to immigrate to Germany?

The AfD is in no position to put legislation regarding immigration in place, that is federal law. Nevertheless, southeast asian immigrants are not particularly in the eyes of the public.

[Longhanks]

> After naturalization and giving up my original citizenship, I am a little envious of people with dual citizenship of US + any EU country. It really doesn’t get better than that.

Depends on whether you actually want to enter the US. If you don't, its citizenship is a burden like no other citizenship: Banks want nothing to do with you and you pay extra taxes that no other nation requires from you. Oh, and should you decide on giving it up - that's cumbersome and costs a bunch of dollars, from what I've heard.

So from someone that at a max would want to visit the US only as a tourist: Having only european citizenship is better than dual european/US citizenship to me.

[iugtmkbdfil834]

Dunno man.. while there are nicer places, I used to live in EU country and, while I do have some fond memories, US lifestyle is soooo much more comfy.

[silver_silver]

What is it about the US you enjoy so? As someone who migrated to Europe from another country (and has never had the privilege of visiting the states) I can certainly think of ways I’d imagine America is better, and vice versa, but comfy is a surprising description. Genuinely curious

[iugtmkbdfil834]

Well, while it does seem to be changing now, I will tell you the parts I learned to appreciate:

- Great food -- especially if you live anywhere near one of the major metropolitan areas, but holes in the wall are aplenty ( I still remember that one ridiculous medley in SD )

- It is huge -- it is hard to explain to people how big US is, which has its own benefits and drawbacks. The obvious benefit is that if you really don't like somewhere, you pick up your toys and move somewhere else. As an immigrant myself, I appreciate that. Doing route 66 properly will take you more than 2 weeks.

- Shit is designed for the lazy -- there is an obvious diclaimer that goes along with that. The design relies on the lazy to extract as much money as possible, but it is effectively designed to be convenient. I used to hate how wasteful dishwasher is until 1) I used it 2) read up on data supporting the approach

- Access -- Most of everything I possibly want ( though - without going into details - thanks to Trump that has changed somewhat ) as long as I can ship it here

- Vibe -- This may be the hardest to actually ingest unless you spent some time here. It is hard to explain the ability to be excessive should you so desire. I think the closest I can get to explain it is the 'merica meme, which is not so far from reality once you get to a certain point ( as in, if you are really into something, you can absolutely get into some crazy level stuff, which may include and I am just listing random encounters with people here: own a tank, have a pet alligator, ride a doom buggy to work, build an indoor range in your house ). I know it is changing in EU, but I think most excess/hobbies there are kinda.. not limited exactly, but they don't often seem to reach the same level of crazy.

All small things and there is plenty to complain about, but I stand by my comfy. I do not think I would be able to do half the stuff there I did here.

[kakacik]

Great food is very relative, we are exposed a lot to French and Italian cuisine and US one... not up to the task to be polite. Quality of ingredients, taste, also portion size.

Its bigger but then there are bigger places. It takes cca 4 days to travel from one side to another, but thats rather meaningless quality. I can hop in a car and be in 30 minutes in France, in 1.5h in Italy (living in Switzerland). I can be in top notch ski resort like Verbier in 1.5h. Thats a positive to me anyhow I look at it. Massive exposition to properly different cultures rather than US mono culture.

I wouldn't call excess a positive, being lazy positive, being deep in comfy/comfort zone an achievement in life, in contrary. But that's up to everybody how they setup their lives.

[iugtmkbdfil834]

<< Thats a positive to me anyhow I look at it.

Everything has a weakness. Everything can be a drawback depending on circumstances. If everything is close means you can never really "get away" from everything; it means everything is condensed and you are effectively forced in a mode of life most Americans instinctively avoid. Is it possible you convinced yourself it is a desired state?

<< Massive exposition to properly different cultures rather than US mono culture.

I personally see this as a severe misunderstanding of US or not having traveled here. Even moving between states, there are massive differences across multiple facets of social reality ( though admittedly, often shaped by local geographical reality ). Utah and New Jersey come to mind -- the is almost nothing about both that aligns beyond maybe existence of tollways there. About the only thing that I can kinda find to support your claim is McDonalds, which is a lone oasis of stability across the continental United States.

edit: FWIW, I wouldn't want to live in France or Italy these days. Maybe Spain. In other words, I think my preferences are showing.

[xdennis]

> Or you can simply move to a country that actually apreciates you and doesnt treat you like unwanted subhuman garbage. We have few in Europe, with QoL and happiness higher than US average.

Please don't. Europe has enough ethnic tensions. At least the US is built to be an ethnic melting pot. It's much better to go there.

[CalRobert]

Ehhhhhh I like Europe, a lot, but when you're in you're 20's or 30's and looking at $300k in SF or €80k in Paris (and better access to investment products and lower taxes in the US to boot), suddenly clocking off at 16:00 on Fridays doesn't seem as nice as being able to retire in your 40's.

[mancerayder]

300k in SF or NYC is FAR from early retirement unless you live 'frugally' - Manhattan average rents are 5K for 1 bed. You pay city, state and federal tax. Food and alcohol are 30-50 percent higher than Paris. And no one talks about property taxes.

In the US, local and federal taxes plus property taxes are easily 50-60 percent of your income.

Inflation runs higher in NYC than the rest of the country, as well.

[Swizec]

> 300k in SF or NYC is FAR from early retirement unless you live 'frugally' - Manhattan average rents are 5K for 1 bed

You don’t have to retire in the US. As others have pointed out, nobody comes here for the lifestyle.

Immigrants like us are literally the holy grail of immigration. Come in during our most productive years, work hard for 10 to 20 years, go back home before you need any of the social and health care stuff you paid into.

[elzbardico]

Yeah, assuming you don't marry in the US, and don't have kids. But surely, you can think about it in your home country after working 20 of the best years of your life.

[Swizec]

You can marry in the US and have kids and still move somewhere else 20 years later. Don’t Americans move to Florida or whatever to retire? If you’re moving that far you can just as well leave the country lol

[thrownthatway]

Does the US allow duel citizenship in both counties? Does the other!

What exit taxes exist in the US if you cannot maintain citizenship in both?

[cj]

$300k is also on the high end. Most devs have a very difficult time getting hired at companies that pay that much.

$300k is probably in the top 10-15% for software engineers if I had the guess. And I assume the top 10-15% in Paris is substantially more than 80k?

Edit: Okay, I guess $300k is near the median in SF if you’re including stock options. (Media base salary in SF is 150-160k)

[joe_mamba]

>$300k is also on the high end.

Of course, but 80k is also on the high-end for Paris jobs as well and buying an apartment in or around Paris is not cheap at all. And most companies in France, even in tech, except maybe the few high-end international ones like FANGS or Mistral and Datadog, explicitly request French language for their workers, whereas English is enough for most US jobs.

I'm EU citizen and looked towards working in France even for the lower wages, but the French language mandates for most jobs are really off putting, even in European companies like Airbus.

Like I'm willing to learn the language, but I'd need at least 2-3 years to get remotely fluent, and it's just not worth the added effort, just for the opportunity to get the average Europoor wages that I can anyway get with just English and my mother tongue anywhere else in EU without any additional effort.

Even in my small Eastern European home town I hear more and more french speakers in the city center every year, and when I talk to them I understand they're all here to study medicine or get junior tech jobs, which is insane to me and speaks volumes on how bad the French jobs market must be for the youth when Eastern Europe is now an immigration hotspot for the french when 20 years ago it was the opposite.

So no, Paris/France is no European SV equivalent, not by a long shot, even by the low European standards. Amsterdam is probably the closest thing to SV the EU has, after London left, but housing and CoL there is insane and even that has significantly fewer VC funding than SV and even London, which highlight just how poor the EU is by comparison to the US at tech funding.

Like I want to get the EU to the top an catch up to the US, but I don't see how that's possible with such limited tech funding and glass ceilings based on having the right nationality and language requirements. EU will never beat the US, at least not in my lifetime.

[markvdb]

> Even in my small Eastern European home town I hear more and more french speakers in the city center every year, and when I talk to them I understand they're all here to study medicine or get junior tech jobs, which is insane to me and speaks volumes on how bad the French jobs market must be for the youth when Eastern Europe is now an immigration hotspot for the french when 20 years ago it was the opposite.

It's often mere fiscal arbitrage. Look at the Belgians in Sofia for example. Euro zone, simpler and more stable administration, much cheaper, better climate, good food. Ridiculously lower taxes. Work remotely for Belgian customers. Pay 10% tax instead of 53.5% + 25+% employer social security contributions + 13.07% employee side. Even in a junior position, working for a Belgian client, you are so much cheaper to them while your net income is so much higher.

[joe_mamba]

>It's often mere fiscal arbitrage Pay 10% tax instead of 53.5% + 25+% employer social security contributions + 13.07% employee side.

So why doesn't Belgium implement those perks too?

[juliie]

From personal experience, in Paris 80k would be a very good salary for a senior engineer at a startup with solid funding. AI startups/big tech would pay around 50% more, but those roles are very rare.

Most people would make way less, at big French companies you won't make 80k until late in your career as an IC (they don't have a staff+ track).

So 80k sounds like a decent guess for the top 10-15%.

[aborsy]

Top graduates in France make 40-50k. This is the reality I have seen. Salaries are often tabulated with limited range.

[sdthjbvuiiijbb]

>And I assume the top 10-15% in Paris is substantially more than 80k?

I don't think that's a good assumption. 80k is rather high for Paris. That's a Google salary at their small office there (or it was when I checked a few years ago). I think the OP's comparison was pretty reasonable.

[root_axis]

It's definitely on the high end. Besides the fact that most startup equity ends up being worthless, you can't wait on a four year cliff to pay your rent.

[throw-the-towel]

Parisian rents are not exactly cheap either, maybe 1/3 of your Manhattan number.

[CalRobert]

I meant retiring in France actually.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Most American's don't have that opportunity either or don't want to make the sacrifice of living in soul crushing circumstances.

[expedition32]

Nobody in my European country needs to work at 70.

But there are VERY few countries on this planet that actually saved for retirement.