[CalRobert]

Ehhhhhh I like Europe, a lot, but when you're in you're 20's or 30's and looking at $300k in SF or €80k in Paris (and better access to investment products and lower taxes in the US to boot), suddenly clocking off at 16:00 on Fridays doesn't seem as nice as being able to retire in your 40's.

[mancerayder]

300k in SF or NYC is FAR from early retirement unless you live 'frugally' - Manhattan average rents are 5K for 1 bed. You pay city, state and federal tax. Food and alcohol are 30-50 percent higher than Paris. And no one talks about property taxes.

In the US, local and federal taxes plus property taxes are easily 50-60 percent of your income.

Inflation runs higher in NYC than the rest of the country, as well.

[Swizec]

> 300k in SF or NYC is FAR from early retirement unless you live 'frugally' - Manhattan average rents are 5K for 1 bed

You don’t have to retire in the US. As others have pointed out, nobody comes here for the lifestyle.

Immigrants like us are literally the holy grail of immigration. Come in during our most productive years, work hard for 10 to 20 years, go back home before you need any of the social and health care stuff you paid into.

[elzbardico]

Yeah, assuming you don't marry in the US, and don't have kids. But surely, you can think about it in your home country after working 20 of the best years of your life.

[Swizec]

You can marry in the US and have kids and still move somewhere else 20 years later. Don’t Americans move to Florida or whatever to retire? If you’re moving that far you can just as well leave the country lol

[thrownthatway]

Does the US allow duel citizenship in both counties? Does the other!

What exit taxes exist in the US if you cannot maintain citizenship in both?

[cj]

$300k is also on the high end. Most devs have a very difficult time getting hired at companies that pay that much.

$300k is probably in the top 10-15% for software engineers if I had the guess. And I assume the top 10-15% in Paris is substantially more than 80k?

Edit: Okay, I guess $300k is near the median in SF if you’re including stock options. (Media base salary in SF is 150-160k)

[joe_mamba]

>$300k is also on the high end.

Of course, but 80k is also on the high-end for Paris jobs as well and buying an apartment in or around Paris is not cheap at all. And most companies in France, even in tech, except maybe the few high-end international ones like FANGS or Mistral and Datadog, explicitly request French language for their workers, whereas English is enough for most US jobs.

I'm EU citizen and looked towards working in France even for the lower wages, but the French language mandates for most jobs are really off putting, even in European companies like Airbus.

Like I'm willing to learn the language, but I'd need at least 2-3 years to get remotely fluent, and it's just not worth the added effort, just for the opportunity to get the average Europoor wages that I can anyway get with just English and my mother tongue anywhere else in EU without any additional effort.

Even in my small Eastern European home town I hear more and more french speakers in the city center every year, and when I talk to them I understand they're all here to study medicine or get junior tech jobs, which is insane to me and speaks volumes on how bad the French jobs market must be for the youth when Eastern Europe is now an immigration hotspot for the french when 20 years ago it was the opposite.

So no, Paris/France is no European SV equivalent, not by a long shot, even by the low European standards. Amsterdam is probably the closest thing to SV the EU has, after London left, but housing and CoL there is insane and even that has significantly fewer VC funding than SV and even London, which highlight just how poor the EU is by comparison to the US at tech funding.

Like I want to get the EU to the top an catch up to the US, but I don't see how that's possible with such limited tech funding and glass ceilings based on having the right nationality and language requirements. EU will never beat the US, at least not in my lifetime.

[markvdb]

> Even in my small Eastern European home town I hear more and more french speakers in the city center every year, and when I talk to them I understand they're all here to study medicine or get junior tech jobs, which is insane to me and speaks volumes on how bad the French jobs market must be for the youth when Eastern Europe is now an immigration hotspot for the french when 20 years ago it was the opposite.

It's often mere fiscal arbitrage. Look at the Belgians in Sofia for example. Euro zone, simpler and more stable administration, much cheaper, better climate, good food. Ridiculously lower taxes. Work remotely for Belgian customers. Pay 10% tax instead of 53.5% + 25+% employer social security contributions + 13.07% employee side. Even in a junior position, working for a Belgian client, you are so much cheaper to them while your net income is so much higher.

[joe_mamba]

>It's often mere fiscal arbitrage Pay 10% tax instead of 53.5% + 25+% employer social security contributions + 13.07% employee side.

So why doesn't Belgium implement those perks too?

[markvdb]

Observing the fact of individual geo-arbitrage is easy.

I'm not superbly well-placed to answer your follow-up question.

[juliie]

From personal experience, in Paris 80k would be a very good salary for a senior engineer at a startup with solid funding. AI startups/big tech would pay around 50% more, but those roles are very rare.

Most people would make way less, at big French companies you won't make 80k until late in your career as an IC (they don't have a staff+ track).

So 80k sounds like a decent guess for the top 10-15%.

[aborsy]

Top graduates in France make 40-50k. This is the reality I have seen. Salaries are often tabulated with limited range.

[sdthjbvuiiijbb]

>And I assume the top 10-15% in Paris is substantially more than 80k?

I don't think that's a good assumption. 80k is rather high for Paris. That's a Google salary at their small office there (or it was when I checked a few years ago). I think the OP's comparison was pretty reasonable.

[root_axis]

It's definitely on the high end. Besides the fact that most startup equity ends up being worthless, you can't wait on a four year cliff to pay your rent.

[throw-the-towel]

Parisian rents are not exactly cheap either, maybe 1/3 of your Manhattan number.

[CalRobert]

I meant retiring in France actually.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Most American's don't have that opportunity either or don't want to make the sacrifice of living in soul crushing circumstances.

[expedition32]

Nobody in my European country needs to work at 70.

But there are VERY few countries on this planet that actually saved for retirement.