[pjgalbraith]

Didn't expect to see something I made on HN while my wife is trying to find something to watch on TV.

So about the site in case anyone is interested. I made it with a friend who was studying multimedia. He helped with the data and I did the coding. Took about a week or two.

The site was originally Flash (remember that). But I ported it to HTML5 a few years ago. It still has those Flash vibes I think. Posted the code to GitHub when I ported it. I did this mostly to keep it alive for old times sake.

So about the mobile support. I planned to do it but got sidetracked building a custom WebGL map renderer because phone performance was poor. However I never finished, life finds a way to get in the way and all that... I have some mobile designs lying around.

The other issue was when I first built the site YouTube didn't really play ads much at all, just those little text ads, and you could embed the player really tiny. So it worked better. In the original flash version I actually hid the video player. But that got the site blacklisted from YouTube, I asked a Google engineer on a dev forum to put a word in and they removed the block, very different times, this was back when Google was a different beast, and you could chat to real people online and the dev communities were much smaller.

I have a illustration of a much bigger map in my sketchbook. It has a lot more subgenres and interconnected things like historical events and so on. But it's huge unfolded, like 2x1.5m or something ridiculous.

I miss those days when the web was full of weird and experimental stuff. I grew up with Newgrounds and Geocities, I'm sure it's all still out there buried under a giant pile of SEO optimised refuse.

[xtracto]

Younger people would never understand how amazing the internet was back in the 90s. Particularly before ads and SEO became an industry.

Also Flash, most people don't realize what we lost with Flash. The amount of non-professional multimedia content available was so great. It was a cooking ground for people to experiment with animation ideas. Very low hanging fruit.

HTML5/Canvas/CSS just don't have that accessibility.

Now the internet is a complete different beast. There are 10 main websites that everyone sees only, and everyone wants to monetize. All content is full of "antipatterns" to maximize monetization. It's very very sad.

Aaaanyway, sorry for the rant. I love your website. I'm a Metalhead myself, and this year I'll go back to Wacken for a 2nd time after 15 years!!

[ravenstine]

Amen! The only things that made the early web bad by comparison were popup ads and the lack of tabbed browsing. Popup windows that didn't rely on user interaction were always a bad idea and should never have existed. But besides that, yeah, I miss those days. I miss the days when I was a kid and I could stick some HTML on a server and people would actually find it. No SEO, ads, or shameless self promotion required.

[zx8080]

> popup ads

Have you open any US news website in 5 years? Usually there are 2 or 3 layers of popups: subscribe!, cookies box, and news video stream playing on top of everything.

[ravenstine]

Modals rendered in the DOM are less bad than full blown windows that clutter up your taskbar and automatically play audio.

[stavros]

Lack of tabbed browsing? Opera begs to differ.

[butlike]

Seriously. EVERY game style that is now on the app store with ads between levels was completely free and hosted on sites like kongregate, ebaumsworld, or other flash game sites. Incremental games specifically were available in droves. It was a pretty cool time.

[errendgame]

You’re the man now, dog!

[Cthulhu_]

Creativity is still there, it's just on other platforms and / or through other media besides the web - tiktok, youtube, roblox, podcasts, fanfiction, art sites, etc.

It's still there, but you have to look AND be interested in it. Many of us were only interested in e.g. newgrounds and ignored deviantart. Many of a younger generation are only interested in e.g. tiktok and ignore tumblr.

Overall, I think it's fine, and / or the kids are alright.

[HappMacDonald]

Let's go back to a websiiiiite!

https://homestarrunner.com/toons/backtoawebsite

[Jarwain]

With LLM's, I wonder how far away we are from "a cooking ground for people to experiment with ideas"

[bigfishrunning]

Getting further all the time; with LLMs you're offloading all of your experimenting to VC jerks

[fsflover]

You can sort of get that old-internet vibe today from the I2P network.

[dylan604]

> Now the internet is a complete different beast. There are 10 main websites that everyone sees only, and everyone wants to monetize. All content is full of "antipatterns" to maximize monetization. It's very very sad.

This was going to happen regardless of if we had Flash or not

[naravara]

> Younger people would never understand how amazing the internet was back in the 90s. Particularly before ads and SEO became an industry.

I don’t even think they’d value it to be honest. The culture of putting stuff out online now is to view everything as a potential revenue stream. If you can’t monetize it, why do it?

[bfeist]

Thanks so much for this write up. It’s not often thought of that when you put something weird and experimental online just for fun that you’re signing up for years of careing and feeding. But that’s also kind of nice, it makes you go engage with your cool thing long after your impulse drove you to make it.

This is a cool thing. I hope you enjoyed remembering about it again today.

[impjohn]

Very cool. Explored a lot of nodes, rekindled some old bands. I was wondering how this was vibe coded, since it was done so well, art wise. Then I read your post. This has such a different feel for whatever is usually made today, I really enjoyed it. Cheers

[nunez]

This is absolutely incredible. I've gotten much more into metal this year; unfortunately this only further enables that!

One disagreement: punk rock island should be a lot bigger in my opinion!

Garage and heavy metal definitely inspired the OG British punk rock scene, but they also inspired NY Dolls and Ramones (who formed specifically in response to the rising popularity of heavy metal, if memory serves), two massively influential bands that progenated several subgenres (pop-punk, which created Descendents, Green Day, Blink 182, etc; Ramones-core; melodic punk). DOA and Black Flag, both of whom are mentioned on the map, also helped inspire the whole Nardcore/West Coast thrash scene (RKL, DI, etc), which was happening, almost rebelliously, at the same time in the East Coast (Gang Green/Jerry's Kids, Proletariat, basically everyone on the "This is Boston, Not LA" album, which is fantastic and still holds up IMO).

I'm going to stop there because if I go any deeper, I'll have to start talking about emo, and that will for sure crash your map.

Anyway, metal is helping cleanse that part of my life; going to spend a lot of time going through the playlists in this map. :)

Thank you for making it!

[tremon]

I interpret each of those outlying islands as representing an external influence to metal that is not elaborated further. Of course that island needs to be bigger, but so should the hard rock and psychedelic rock islands -- and they should extend into the 70s and 80s as well.

But this is a map of metal, not a map of music. If one were to draw a map of punk, metal would also just feature as a few small islands I gather, along with islands not mentioned here such as surf, reggae and hip hop.

[nunez]

Fair enough! I guess you'd just recreate the universe if each genre were expanded upon further.

[hardbass]

Do you disagree with hardcore punk influence as being one of the key disambiguation between thrash from speed metal? Personally at least that's what I feel. I do understand this means for example a lot of Metallica won't count as thrash but I like to say if you slow down Metallica it sounds more like Black Sabbath while slowed down Slayer or Anthrax sounds quite different, so I feel there may be a hard physical evidence for my theory. I found it a bit odd you didn't have this aspect written in the statements about differences between speed metal and thrash metal.

I do like and agree that you put Slayer - Necrophiliac under the development of death metal. Though by those same accounts I'd have moved Kreator - Ripping Corpse from the thrash column to the death metal column, but that's just a personal line.

I also feel your tech death is biased too much toward 2000s rather than stuff like Sadus, Demilich or Disciples of Power.

Absolutely loved the inclusion of death n roll, one of my favorite substyles.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Well, sped-up Cathedral sounds like Bathory so... I don't know what that's physical evidence of? But I accept your theory as a valid theory, just because there's a test for it, even though I don't understand what the test shows.

[hardbass]

I think Cathedral is closer to death metal structure in my personal view compared to classic Black Sabbath, so that should not be too surprising. My test is simple, the history of thrash itself shows a lot of it coming from combining hardcore punk influence directly to metal, a lot of old thrash feels to me having mild to overt hardcore sections or riffs at points. And I think that's the aspect that gives thrash its political themes and more direct lyrics compared to the more fantasy or generic bragging style of older metal.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

That's the theory I know, too, but there are counter-examples. Quorthon for one always maintained that his influences were rock and glam. He may well have been taking the piss, but while most people insist he ripped-off Venom, his early stuff (Bathory, The Return, Under the Sign Of the Black mark) sounds nothing like Venom, it's just the titles, and the lyrics that are clearly ripped off.

But Bathory is Black, so a bit by-the-by. Venom (whom I count as an early thrash band; they have nothing to do with Black Metal except for that one song title), seem to have been more influenced by Motörhead, Motörhead, Motörhead, and Judas Priest. I believe Venom were a major influence for all European Thrash bands.

Speaking of Motörhead, they were also a major influence to at least Sodom and possibly other early Thrash bands too. So I personally think Motörhead are a more likely Thrash influence than hardcore.

Then again Metallica do have their Garage Days Revisited album which is probably a good catalogue of their influences. Maybe. Tbh I don't hear Sabbath in Metallica. And I've listened to oodles of both religiously as a teenager.

Back to European Thrash, Kreator and Destruction that I also listened to as a teenager, don't sound very hardcore-influenced at all. They are just harder, dirtier, Speed Metal bands with more violent lyrics.

Come to think of it, maybe there is an American vs. European Thrash divide. American bands more influenced by hardcore, and/like Metallica; European bands more influenced by Speed Metal. And Motörhead.

Honestly. A lot of European Thrash sounds to me like Motörhead. For example:

https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5

But, well, that's a bit on the nose.

[hardbass]

We could trade examples all day of course, here are some of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g

and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o

I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. In the branch of thrash or partition perhaps that I gave the distinction is clear: hardcore of some sort or scene as the influence. For German thrash, I can see clearly there is a difference, as Sodom and Kreator in their early era feels like black/death metal structurally so it isn't just sped up Motorhead. While a lot of Metallica sounds like thrash, there is an element of rock music to Metallica's sound. Your example with that Sodom song is a good one. In my view a band that considered itself thrash when doing the "odd one out" song for an album, would never write something like For whom the bell tolls, they'd do a Discharge cover instead or a east coast hc style short song. Perhaps its my finding rock music grating that biases me to leaning toward some of Metallica's work not being thrash. For German, we can see it by asking what is the difference between Rage or Angel Dust and Kreator/Destruction (here of course even Rage and Angel Dust are already absent of any rock feeling even though they are supposed to be the older so called "speed metal" style). In both my examples and much of German thrash I think for me, if I look back and see, I think its that whatever path they took the rock aspects have completely gone from them by that time.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Yeah, you catch me out here, I think I know Violence and I obviously know Anthrax but the rest I'll have to listen to a bit to see what you mean.

But I do see what you mean in many places, e.g. the structural similarity of Sodom and Kreator with early Black. Including Bathory again! It isn't just sped up Motorhead, and the Sodom track is indeed a bit out of the ordinary, but they're still a big influence I think.

I don't know if I agree Metallica have a rock element. Hmm. Can you point to a track more specifically where you hear that? I can't think of any. Unless it's in the Black Album or later?

>> I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is.

Well, yes, and then, maybe it's a bit of an affectation. It's only something you do once you've listened to a bit more metal than the ordinary person (which is not much: AC/DC, Metallica, maybe Slayer, end of). I of course had endless debates with my friends as a teenager and I may or may not have written angry letters to the editors of the only Greek language Metal magazine when I was growing up (and I think the only one still?) to protest the clandestine placing of a band in the absolutely wrong category in this or that article of theirs.

Maybe kids these days will get over that sort of thing. Maybe not. It's all good.

>> and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o

Yeah without even listening to that I can tell it's cheating XD

[hardbass]

Quorthon of course like most artists is a diva and notorious liar, for example having never heard of Manowar before, so any statement made by him can be dispensed with.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Eeeh, one should never speak ill of the dead, unless it's the desecrated body of Christ. Anyway yeah he was a bit peculiar.

I really don't think he copied Manowar though. People point to Hammerheart, but I think they forget Blood Fire Death, which is the true first Viking Metal album and sounds nothing like Manowar. Hammerheart also sounds nothing like Manowar to my ears although one reason for that could be that I haven't listening to a lot Manowar post-Hail to England. Maybe it sounds more like epic-Bathory after that?

The Viking theme of cousre is neither Quorthon's nor Manowar's invention.

[marapuru]

Very awesome. Thanks for sharing and for making this. Reminds me of the Metal Evolution documentary by BangerTV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmiqVYZHTIQ&list=PLgzW3ulw6T...

[networked]

Source code repository: https://github.com/patrickgalbraith/mapofmetal.

> It still has those Flash vibes I think.

I can say I noticed. I wondered if the site had been Flash.

[msm_]

Wow! I didn't expect to see mapofmetal on HN, and I *definitely* didn't expect to see the author's response.

I just wanted to say thank you for making it, it was really important for me when exploring music back in 2010s. It was also great to see the "big picture" of metal genres, and start the long journey down the rabbit hole.

In a fun turn of events, I showed this to my wife just a few days ago, to show what I was up to when I was younger. And now less than a week later this is submitted to HN. Fun coincidence.

[ChuckMcM]

This is an awesome visualization. I have always enjoyed 'structural taxonomies' as a way of visualizing data relationships. I appreciate you keeping it alive.

[Drup]

Your map was very formative for me when I was exploring metal, thanks a lot !

I would love for this Map to be expanded to modern subgenres. There are lot's of subgenres that completely changed in the last decades (notably, the *cores and the tech* ...)

And it's definitely missing Thall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtV9pcHh8vM). :D

[robjam]

I was looking through this, seeing the years radius and having my expectations validated/refuted was really fun! Lots of yeah but no, or no way but yeah? The curation of it is really respectable no matter my own taste and that is something that is in real low stock. Thanks for making my day and I'll add a few respectful issues when I can

[dddw]

Ah man, thanks so much for making this. Metal is not my main favourite genre, but this site definitely helped grew my understanding and admiration for it a lot. I come back to this site every now and then for years since the flash version. So cool that you ported it! Was it a big task?

[cholantesh]

Incredible work and yes, it really captures a Flash vibe.

My only note would be that I'm surprised that Order from Chaos isn't featured anywhere; I feel like they are kind of a Rosetta stone for so much of what happened in the 90s/00s with black and death metal converging on each other.

[Semaphor]

Any chance to get a high resolution photo of the sketchbook version? Would love to also have a look at that :)

[owlninja]

Very nice! As soon as I saw the landing page and the loading/start button I immediately thought of Flash.

[glenstein]

Absolutely fantastic project! I completely understand you've got other things going on, but for me on Firefox mobile, I'm seeing a YouTube pop-up window for Black Sabbath and I don't see any obvious way to close it.

[pjgalbraith]

Sorry about that. Its definitely a desktop kinda experience anyway.

[kuerbel]

If you switch to the desktop version in the menu it works fine

[Starman_Jones]

This was hugely influential on a younger me! I remember tracing forward and backwards from the bands I liked, finding and checking out new bands at every stop. Thank you!

[ew6082]

I love it! Was the inability to turn down the volume on the mini player intentional? This had me laughing. I'm at work, but that's metal AF.

[goykasi]

I see you chose the superior version of 43% Burnt by Dillinger. It blows my mind that he never became the new vocalist.

[voxleone]

Maps, a great way to present music. Congrats for the work, brought back fond memories.

[abrookewood]

Mate, this is really cool. Definitely a throw back to a different time.

[bingoMen]

I am very sad to see NSBM and bands with problematic members being promoted here. We have so many problems with right-wing structures and people (mostly male band members) who think they can do whatever they want in this world. Giving them a platform and advertising them will show that metal communities are more exclusive than they are promoting. This is especially concerning given that the metal community seems to be very tolerant, but I think 'ignorant' is a more accurate description of accepting murderers, racist and molester. Yes, a significant proportion of the metal history is problematic persons and bands, but I cannot find any warnings, FAQs or contextualisations. It's a shame. As a result, the metal community will remain old, white and male.

[tomgp]

So glad you took the time to keep the site alive!

[GuinansEyebrows]

i haven't seen this since the flash days. so cool. glad you ported it so it's still accessible!