[YeGoblynQueenne]

Well, sped-up Cathedral sounds like Bathory so... I don't know what that's physical evidence of? But I accept your theory as a valid theory, just because there's a test for it, even though I don't understand what the test shows.

[hardbass]

I think Cathedral is closer to death metal structure in my personal view compared to classic Black Sabbath, so that should not be too surprising. My test is simple, the history of thrash itself shows a lot of it coming from combining hardcore punk influence directly to metal, a lot of old thrash feels to me having mild to overt hardcore sections or riffs at points. And I think that's the aspect that gives thrash its political themes and more direct lyrics compared to the more fantasy or generic bragging style of older metal.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

That's the theory I know, too, but there are counter-examples. Quorthon for one always maintained that his influences were rock and glam. He may well have been taking the piss, but while most people insist he ripped-off Venom, his early stuff (Bathory, The Return, Under the Sign Of the Black mark) sounds nothing like Venom, it's just the titles, and the lyrics that are clearly ripped off.

But Bathory is Black, so a bit by-the-by. Venom (whom I count as an early thrash band; they have nothing to do with Black Metal except for that one song title), seem to have been more influenced by Motörhead, Motörhead, Motörhead, and Judas Priest. I believe Venom were a major influence for all European Thrash bands.

Speaking of Motörhead, they were also a major influence to at least Sodom and possibly other early Thrash bands too. So I personally think Motörhead are a more likely Thrash influence than hardcore.

Then again Metallica do have their Garage Days Revisited album which is probably a good catalogue of their influences. Maybe. Tbh I don't hear Sabbath in Metallica. And I've listened to oodles of both religiously as a teenager.

Back to European Thrash, Kreator and Destruction that I also listened to as a teenager, don't sound very hardcore-influenced at all. They are just harder, dirtier, Speed Metal bands with more violent lyrics.

Come to think of it, maybe there is an American vs. European Thrash divide. American bands more influenced by hardcore, and/like Metallica; European bands more influenced by Speed Metal. And Motörhead.

Honestly. A lot of European Thrash sounds to me like Motörhead. For example:

https://youtu.be/-qmbiw38o2I?si=z35EZG1X07p4uUe5

But, well, that's a bit on the nose.

[hardbass]

We could trade examples all day of course, here are some of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8C3Tez3iAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa5p0FVhko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphUURIAx5g

and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o

I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is. In the branch of thrash or partition perhaps that I gave the distinction is clear: hardcore of some sort or scene as the influence. For German thrash, I can see clearly there is a difference, as Sodom and Kreator in their early era feels like black/death metal structurally so it isn't just sped up Motorhead. While a lot of Metallica sounds like thrash, there is an element of rock music to Metallica's sound. Your example with that Sodom song is a good one. In my view a band that considered itself thrash when doing the "odd one out" song for an album, would never write something like For whom the bell tolls, they'd do a Discharge cover instead or a east coast hc style short song. Perhaps its my finding rock music grating that biases me to leaning toward some of Metallica's work not being thrash. For German, we can see it by asking what is the difference between Rage or Angel Dust and Kreator/Destruction (here of course even Rage and Angel Dust are already absent of any rock feeling even though they are supposed to be the older so called "speed metal" style). In both my examples and much of German thrash I think for me, if I look back and see, I think its that whatever path they took the rock aspects have completely gone from them by that time.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Yeah, you catch me out here, I think I know Violence and I obviously know Anthrax but the rest I'll have to listen to a bit to see what you mean.

But I do see what you mean in many places, e.g. the structural similarity of Sodom and Kreator with early Black. Including Bathory again! It isn't just sped up Motorhead, and the Sodom track is indeed a bit out of the ordinary, but they're still a big influence I think.

I don't know if I agree Metallica have a rock element. Hmm. Can you point to a track more specifically where you hear that? I can't think of any. Unless it's in the Black Album or later?

>> I suppose its my bias speaking but at the end of the day there has to be something that distinguishes thrash metal from speed metal or heavy metal of course. Its in our "guts" so to speak but it needs teasing out exactly what the difference is.

Well, yes, and then, maybe it's a bit of an affectation. It's only something you do once you've listened to a bit more metal than the ordinary person (which is not much: AC/DC, Metallica, maybe Slayer, end of). I of course had endless debates with my friends as a teenager and I may or may not have written angry letters to the editors of the only Greek language Metal magazine when I was growing up (and I think the only one still?) to protest the clandestine placing of a band in the absolutely wrong category in this or that article of theirs.

Maybe kids these days will get over that sort of thing. Maybe not. It's all good.

>> and for my "cheat" example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o

Yeah without even listening to that I can tell it's cheating XD

[hardbass]

I meant for whom the bell tolls itself as an example, while it uses thrash metal chugs, something about how its laid out feels a bit off like its trying to be written like a rock song.

One thing I just realized is that compared to early thrash metal, some speed metal bands had already gotten far more militant, stripped down and free of any remaining rock feelings. Think of Exciter, Rage, early Helloween or Agent Steel.

Again speaking to my bias of course but for me thrash starts getting truly exciting when it started growing toward death metal, its the most "fun" form of metal to me in a way nothing else gets, its in some ways the most spiritually "hardcore punk" like form of metal in the sense of instead of just including this or that hardcore guitar phrase or drum beat in a song, their approach of writing and playing was very pure, heart worn on sleeves and egging each other on fun. The complexity level was increasing rapidly but I feel due to this hardcore sensibility it doesn't just start sounding like prog rock as this hardcore like minimalist thinking keeps the melodies elegant and flowing, its probably one of more legato leaning genres of metal.

But yes, genres are not mathematical structures, trying to find a really hard scientific dividing line would keep leading to moving in circles forever. I have my preferences of course, death thrash and OSDM mainly.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> I meant for whom the bell tolls itself as an example, while it uses thrash metal chugs, something about how its laid out feels a bit off like its trying to be written like a rock song.

Hm. OK, maybe. I haven't ever thought of it that way tbh. It does kind of Deep Purple though, in its general rythm so maybe.

I think I agree with your point about Thrash moving away from Rock, very much, despite my feeling that Motorhead was a major influence. I don't know if there's a contradiction there. On the other hand, one of my favourite bands is Entombed (though I can't say I like everything they ever recorded) and I like them exactly because they have this kind of boogie groove in their death-thrash. Then again I think that is one reason some people just don't like them.

I'd say some Thrash bands definitely veered too close to prog. Annihilator? Over Kill? Megadeath... Some Death bands too. I remember reading reviews about this or that Death record and the journo would write about the sudden changes of tempo and the complex riffs and so on and I'd always be like, I don't care about that. I like my Metal simple tbh. Give me one riff that will blow me away and I don't care how technically accomplished you are.

Now, I remember a friend of mine who distinguished Metal from non-Metal based on whether a song had a guitar solo, or not. If it did, it was Metal. If not, it was something else, probably that sus hardcore stuff that our common friends liked. I guess that goes to your point about the similarities and therefore at least cross-pollination, if not outright influence, between thrash and hardcore.

>> But yes, genres are not mathematical structures, trying to find a really hard scientific dividing line would keep leading to moving in circles forever. I have my preferences of course, death thrash and OSDM mainly.

Yeah, mostly classic Metal, Doom, Black, Thrash, and a bit of NWOTHM here. OSDM is cool too, I need to dig more into it.

Death, I'm kind of 50/50. I like some Death bands a lot, like I played the first two Death albums to er death. It's a bit hit and miss for me though. I like Grind bands more consistently, Cannibal Corpse and Last Days of Humanity.

When I was a kid, adults told me Metal was a passing fad, it would go away in a few years, and I'd grow out of it.

Any moment now...!

[hardbass]

Quorthon of course like most artists is a diva and notorious liar, for example having never heard of Manowar before, so any statement made by him can be dispensed with.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Eeeh, one should never speak ill of the dead, unless it's the desecrated body of Christ. Anyway yeah he was a bit peculiar.

I really don't think he copied Manowar though. People point to Hammerheart, but I think they forget Blood Fire Death, which is the true first Viking Metal album and sounds nothing like Manowar. Hammerheart also sounds nothing like Manowar to my ears although one reason for that could be that I haven't listening to a lot Manowar post-Hail to England. Maybe it sounds more like epic-Bathory after that?

The Viking theme of cousre is neither Quorthon's nor Manowar's invention.