[nh23423fefe]

Violence is the most effective behavior modification because it leverages pain. Every moral good has to be anchored to pain and its avoidance. Tit for tat is rational violence allocation. The golden rule has some "contrapositive" version right? I'll harm you in the way I should be harmed for bad actions.

[ajkjk]

"most effective" requires a lot of justification. I think it's empirically false, personally. A system that uses violence to establish norms is fundamentally unstable because it lets whoever can muster the most violence set the rules---meaning people have an incentive to change the system for their benefit and everyone's incentivizes are pointing in different directions. Whereas a system whose behaviors are enforced by overall prosociality will find equilibria that are also generally prosocial and therefore will be defended by everyone, so their incentives point in the same direction, making it more stable.

[nh23423fefe]

you haven't made an argument for why stable rules are good nor have you justified the assertion that prosocial enforcement even exists

[ajkjk]

Nor do I feel the need to, since my goal was only to present the obvious refutation to the (basically fascist) argument I was replying to.

Anyway both are self-evident: prosocial enforcement exists because we see it around us every day and stable prosocial systems are good because people pick them, given the choice.

[nh23423fefe]

win argument button pressed lol, especially strong when mixed with shifting goal posts

[ajkjk]

You're thinking of comment threads as some kind of high school debate contest? for some reason?

[nh23423fefe]

it seems to me like you have no aim at all.

[np-]

Violence is an effective temporary behavior modification tool, people will in fact change their behavior in order to not get beaten by the stick. But the flip side is as soon as they get a bigger stick, the old behavior will be back with a vengeance. So the solution here is overwhelming violence. But then there’s clearly limits to that modifying behavior too (look at the Middle East for example).

Domestically, even with the threat of state violence (imprisonment), most offenders are repeat offenders, so how effective is violence really?

[nh23423fefe]

violence is a signal to offenders and non offenders. you cant only assess the effect on the direct targets of violence. if i spank my eldest, my youngest behaves better

[np-]

That’s still only temporary overwhelming violence, presumably over small children who are entirely subjugated by their parents and have no effective way to fight back. Would it still apply if your child was an 18 year old football player made of 200 pounds of solid muscle and could slap you back 10x harder? Would they still be following your violence instilled rules the second they get independence from you? The rebel child is quite a common trope. It still only holds when the violence is overwhelming, which is at best a temporary thing, until the tables turn and the one who was subjugated has power.

[DougN7]

I’m curious about your age. I don’t think I’ve ever met a person that was grateful to their parents for their beatings, and that was in any way close to them. I’m not claiming in any way that you beat your kids - but violence never creates virtue. Maybe public-facing good behavior at best, but below the surface is a lot of pain looking for a way out.

[TrnsltLife]

Maybe the author of Hebrews 12:11

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

It's a long-standing trait of adulthood to be able to reflect and integrate the sometimes painful training of childhood as being necessary for producing the mindsets and behaviors of to function in society.

[np-]

I am like 99% sure that quote is referring to self discipline and rigor in study and has absolutely nothing at all to do with your parents slapping you.

[DougN7]

Violence and discipline are not the same thing.

[nh23423fefe]

40s. my mom beat me a handful of times in my life. i think i deserved it. i dont have kids. "my eldest" is rhetorical.